In this conversation, Niko shares two very different stories of being listened to deeply — one from a college poetry workshop, and one from a junior colleague who challenged him in front of his entire firm — and what each taught him about what it means to be deeply heard. He also reads from his favorite W.H. Auden poem, "Leap Before You Look." He and Marc talk about "dancing with expectations" (rather than just deferring to them), what Dr. V of Aravind Eye Hospital meant by "becoming a more perfect instrument," and where real partnerships between the top and middle of an organization often go missing. The conversation closes with a lovely turn, when Niko takes the question Marc opened with and hands it back to him.

Niko Canner is the founder of Incandescent, which recently acquired Minds at Work, the organization Bob Kegan and Lisa Lahey built around Immunity to Change. Before starting Incandescent, he spent years at McKinsey, co-founded and led Katzenbach Partners, and served on the management committee at Bridgewater Associates. He was named one of Fortune's "new gurus" (2008) and a World Economic Forum Young Global Leader (2011), and co-leads China 2024, a two-decade study of how Chinese business leaders develop. He writes the blog On Human Enterprise.

Links:

• Incandescent
• Minds at Work
• On Human Enterprise (Niko's blog)
  • Frogs & Butterflies: Announcing Incandescent's Acquisition of Minds at Work
  • Six Conversations Every Partnership Firm Should Have
  • Incandescent Turns 10

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Also from Convu — Peer Coaching for Writers & Artists. A 10-week program for writers and artists who want to trade creative isolation for connection. Learn more at https://www.convu.com/writers-and-artists

Jennifer is the CEO and founding partner of the global leadership firm Cultivating Leadership, and the author of four books on leadership and complexity for Stanford University Press — including Changing on the Job, now in its second edition. It's a natural fit for a show about listening: much of what she teaches comes down to staying open, holding more than one perspective, and questioning our own certainty long enough to actually hear another person.

Together they unpack Jennifer's distinction between three kinds of listening — listening to win, listening to fix, and listening to learn — and why the first two, even when kind, so often leave people feeling unheard. Along the way: a personal story of being received rather than reassured during a frightening time, listening as a renewable resource that "costs nothing and creates value," listening as perhaps the deepest form of love — and why, given a magic wand, Jennifer would hand that capacity first to the world's politicians.

Mentioned in this episode
• William Ury, "The Power of Listening" (TEDxSanDiego): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saXfavo1OQo
• "It's Not About the Nail" by Jason Headley: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4EDhdAHrOg
• Daniel Kahneman, Thinking, Fast and Slow: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/89308/thinking-fast-and-slow-by-daniel-kahneman/
• Coaches Rising — "Love as a Business Imperative"
• Coaches Rising — "Emergent Leadership in an Era of Chaos"

More on Jennifer Garvey Berger
• Changing on the Job (2nd ed.): https://www.porchlightbooks.com/products/changing-on-the-job-second-edition-jennifer-garvey-berger-9781503640245
• Cultivating Leadership: https://www.cultivatingleadership.com/

• Cultivating Leadership on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@CultivatingLeadership

New here? Follow On Listening wherever you get your podcasts so the next conversation finds you.

Also from Convu — Peer Coaching for Writers & Artists. A 10-week program for writers and artists who want to trade creative isolation for connection. Learn more at https://www.convu.com/writers-and-artists

New here? Follow On Listening wherever you get your podcasts so the next conversation finds you.

Also from Convu — Peer Coaching for Writers & Artists. A 10-week program with facilitator Rosie Sultan for writers and artists who want to trade creative isolation for connection. Fall 2026 runs Tuesdays, Sept 15–Dec 1, 7–8:30pm ET. Register at app.convu.com with the keyword artofconversation → https://www.convu.com/writers-and-artists