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Jonathan Miller works in frontier tech, research and development. He vounteers for Americans for Safe Aerospace, and ran a course at MIT called Confronting Unknowns.

We discuss the challenge of considering UAP and means and methods for getting better information about this tricky subject.

Jonathan's Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/tough-tech-today-with-meyen-and-miller/id1527322834

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Renate Erdal is the leader of UFO Norway, a construction project manager, and a Captain in the Norwegian Army Reserves.

We talk about UFO Norway's activities, Norwegian UFO history, how to make disclosure a healthy process, and what we'd like to ask the NHI.

If you like my mission to help demystify UFOs with experts researching them, please support this show with $1/month: https://patreon.com/wtufo

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In 1952, two waves of UFOs flew over DC, shocking America. It was big news at the time, but in the years since then, it's faded from memory. We talk about what happened and ponder how this major moment slipped into the dust of history. 

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Nick's background in media technology put him in contact with many government agencies, which helped him see our legal system as approachable and human. He founded Declassify UAP to help people contact their elected representatives and press for greater transparency on the subject. 

This wide-ranging conversation covers everything from Nick's technical experience to the status of transparency advocacy to the metaphysical oneness of being and action. It's a doozy, and Nick's preternaturally articulate flow keeps it tripping along. Hope you enjoy! 

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Dr. Knuth is a Full Professor in the Department of Physics at the University at Albany (SUNY) and the Editor-in-Chief of the journal Entropy (MDPI). He holds various positions leading and consulting with almost every major UFO organization, including UAPX, SCU, SUAPS, The Sol Foundation, IFEX and The Galileo Project.  

Kevin worked for four years at NASA Ames Research Center in the Intelligent Systems Division designing artificial intelligence algorithms for astrophysical data analysis. He has over 20 years of experience in applying Bayesian and maximum entropy methods to the design of machine learning algorithms for data analysis applied to the physical sciences. His current research interests include the foundations of physics, quantum information, inference and inquiry, autonomous robotics, and the search for and characterization of extrasolar planets. He has published over 90 peer-reviewed publications and has been invited to give over 80 presentations in 14 countries. 

https://www.albany.edu/physics/faculty/kevin-knuth

We discuss his work on UFO science, including these two papers:

Estimating the Flight Characteristics of Anomalous Unidentified Aerial Vehicles
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7514271/

Simulating the characteristics of extra-terrestrial civilizations that encounter Earth 
https://knuthlab.org/papers/knuth---kavli-2024---galactic-colonization.pdf

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The UFO phenomenon has huge implications for almost every field of human endeavor. We consider the biggest areas of impact.

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Dr. James Madden teaches philosophy at Benedictine College. He's written three books, including "Unidentified Flying Hyperobject: UFOs, Philosophy, and the End of the World." 

We discuss how to think carefully about UAP, the probabilities of their origins, the tension between caution and productive investigation, what it would take to prove UAP are nonhuman, and the possibilities of contact. 

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Jim's Papers: https://www.jdmadden.com/philosophy-course 

Jim's Substack: https://jdmadden.substack.com/ 

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Rich Hoffman celebrated 60 years of UFO investigation in 2024. He's an IT consultant and strategist, and a defense contractor with Army Material Command. One of the first members of MUFON, he rose through the ranks to serve as Director of Investigations, Star Team Manager, Director of Strategic Projects, and State Director for multiple states. 

Rich founded the Scientific Coalition for UAP Studies to connect scientists around the world and apply rigorous research methods to the investigation of UFOs and their properties. He's contributed directly to several deep-dive research papers about both particular UAP events and the broader patterns revealed in high-quality historical data. 

Rich tells us about his career, takes us on a detailed tour through the scientific work of SCU, and previews upcoming developments in the field. 

We hope you enjoy our show! If you do, please consider supporting us so we can get the word out about our work and the cool people we're talking to. 

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We talk with Dr. Steven Brown of Ohio State University about applying philosophy to UFOs, the nature of the phenomenon, the coverup and widespread denial, converging structural challenges, and how to help people process the biggest intellectual transition in human history. 

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Here are some things we mention in the show: 

Dr. Brown’s YouTube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/@stevenbrownphilosophy

That UFO Podcast Interview
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qin_JjLvJDI

New Paradigm Institute
https://newparadigminstitute.org/ 

The Sol Foundation
https://thesolfoundation.org/

UAP Caucus
https://www.uapcaucus.com/ 

UAP Disclosure Fund
https://www.uapdisclosurefund.org/ 

Pascal’s Wager
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager 

William James - The Will to Believe
https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/26659 

Lara Buchak - Faith and Traditions
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/nous.12427 

Mutually Exclusive, Collectively Exhaustive Dichotomies
https://strategyu.co/wtf-is-mece-mutually-exclusive-collectively-exhaustive/ 

The UAP Disclosure Act
https://www.congress.gov/amendment/118th-congress/senate-amendment/2610/text 

Kevin Knuth’s Sol Video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&si=0IZEkOlaOWEp1S-B&v=HlYwktOj75A 

Leslie Kean - UFOs
https://amzn.to/4dPhJ6v  (Amazon Affiliate Link)

Richard Dolan - UFOs and the National Security State 
Part 1 https://amzn.to/3WNdn95 (Amazon Affiliate Link)
Part 2 https://amzn.to/4dH6hKa (Amazon Affiliate Link)

Nick Bostrom - Superintelligence
https://amzn.to/4cnP07O (Amazon Affiliate Link)

Thich Nhat Hanh - How to Sit
https://amzn.to/3yJLx5M (Amazon Affiliate Link)

Thomas Kuhn - The Structure of Scientific Revolutions
https://amzn.to/3X421Px (Amazon Affiliate Link)

Dean Radin - Real Magic
https://amzn.to/3Mb2iK4 (Amazon Affiliate Link)

Jacques Vallee - Passport to Magonia

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Dr. Bohlander is an international criminal lawyer. We discuss his book, Contact with Extraterrestrial Intelligence and Human Law. 

Dr. Bohlander's Staff Page: 
https://www.durham.ac.uk/staff/michael-bohlander/

Contact with ETI and Human Law: 
https://brill.com/display/title/68174

UAP and SETI Symposium: 
https://www.durham.ac.uk/departments/academic/law/news-and-events/events/2025/04/grounding-the-seti-and-uap-debate-law-evidence-and-anticipated-futures/ 

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David is a lifelong experiencer with some wild personal encounters. We take an uncritical trip through his stories and get his views on the cosmic situation. 

Music by John Hubbell: https://mathoftrees.bandcamp.com/album/math-of-trees 

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Seth has a masters in psychology and works in fintech. He also podcasts about aliens with a cheerfully comedic bent. You can fond his show The Spiritual Skeptic here: https://thespiritualskeptic.buzzsprout.com/

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Victor's Podcast: https://creators.spotify.com/pod/profile/zlandcommunications/episodes/Daniel-Sheehan---The-ET-Presence-and-the-Human-Family-er8ju8?utm_source=chatgpt.com 

Zland Communications: https://sites.google.com/site/zlandcommunications/zlandcommunications-overview-and-current-news?authuser=0

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uNHIdden: https://www.unhidden.org/our-board/

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Birdie is amazing. She founded ABQ UFOs, which is one of the largest volunteer organizations of UFO enthusiasts, and she's among the most accomplished civilian remote viewers. We discuss her work and experience in both areas here, and look closely at the places where UFOs and remote viewing intersect.

You can follow Birdie online at her site No Rivets: https://www.norivets.com/

Engage with ABQ UFOs at their site: https://www.abqufos.com/

And check out Birdie's course with Ubiquity University here: https://www.ubiquityuniversity.org/developing-the-human-et-relationship-through-remote-viewing-with-birdie-jaworski/

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John and Gerry Tedesco are likely the world's most experienced civilian UAP trackers. They've logged hundreds of hours of data collection in their mobile lab Nightcrawler units with dozens of high-quality sensor instruments, including advanced radar equipment for which they acquired a special license.

We discuss their history as electrical engineers, their UAP observation work so far, their harrowing close encounter, and their plans for future projects.

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Jim's Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/QuirkZone 

Jim's Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4DxSG1jjl1gPnF6xYrU2Cz 

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John's turn to tell you what he thinks!

As we get more information, our views may change, but as of recording, this was our understanding of the phenomenon and situation around it.

Brand Note: We called this show Holding Space for the first 6 episodes. Now we call it WTUFO. It's better, right? We hope you enjoy. 

If you're enjoying the show and you'd like to help us keep making it, please consider supporting us at patreon.com/WTUFO

Original Air Date: January 14, 2024

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If UFOs aren't NHI, some other weird things must be happening. Given what we know is definitely true, we imagine the potential alternate explanations for UFOs, creature encounters, and coverup allegations. To cap it off, we use our trusty Occam's razor to cut through the chaos.

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The logical argument that UFOs are non-human objects is extremely strong.

The very short version goes like this:

1. UFOs demonstrate advanced propulsion
2. UFOs have been doing that for 80 years
3. It's extremely unlikely that humans invented advanced propulsion in the 1940s
4. It's extremely likely that UFOs are non-human

If you'd like to read the full essay, you can check it out here: https://wtufo.com/ufo-skepticism-is-the-real-fringe-theory/

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Over the years several people have made claims about UFOs near the end of their lives. We talk about some of the most famous cases, including several from people who worked at Roswell, and one, Phil Corso, who wrote a book about working on a secret reverse engineering program for the Pentagon. 

These confessions range from simple to complex and from believable to unusual. We cover the confessions and then go a little deeper on Corso's book, The Day After Roswell. 

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The main engines of American news media do a terrible job covering UFOs. What should they resolve to improve? 

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This is a fun one. Krys and Ariel host The Elephant In the Room 411 Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/@ElephantInTheRoom411 

We talk about how to discuss the UFO subject with family and friends, how to center experiencers in the cultural conversation, and how we rate the various possible explanations for the UFO phenomenon. 

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Grant Cameron has been researching UFOs for over 50 years. He's a prolific writer and speaker, with over 20 publications to his name. 

Grant's interview with us is freewheeling and intense. To be honest, we don't know what to make of some of his claims. However, we respect his lifelong commitment to the subject and we're grateful he chose to share so much of his precious time with us. 

As we say at the top of the episode, this one's not for beginners. Seasoned UFO thinkers will have a better toolkit for navigating bizarre, surprising and/or dubious truth claims. If you're in the early days of your UFO journey, you might want to start with another episode, or just prepare yourself to onboard this information with careful consideration. 

It may be mostly true or partly true or mostly false, but no one could call this deluge boring. Grant's poured his soul into this research, and we're proud to share his views in our Season 3 finale.

Thank you for continuing this fascinating journey with us. We hope you're having fun! 

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Grant on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/stores/Mr.-Grant-Cameron/author/B00EFGCJRC 

Grant referenced over three dozen interesting research trailheads, from people to programs to songs to buildings. We've included them in a post on our site so you can check them out yourself: https://wtufo.com/s3e13-grant-cameron-ufo-researcher-and-writer/

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Join Us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCY1dX8lyn1zQSLelJ_cU2TQ/join 

Leslie and Stephen's Book: https://www.amazon.com/Who-They-Are-What-Theyre/dp/B0BKCQ363C/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0 

Music by John Hubbell: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCY1dX8lyn1zQSLelJ_cU2TQ/join 

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Dr. Cifone is an accomplished philosopher of science and the founder of the Society for UAP Studies: https://www.societyforuapstudies.org/ 

He also edits the Society's peer-reviewed journal Limina: https://limina.uapstudies.org/ 

We discuss the philosophy of science, the project of approaching UAP in contemporary science, the unique challenges and opportunities it poses as a subject, and a wide array of related topics. 

It's our furthest ranging and longest episode yet. We hope you enjoy! 

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 Dr. Janis Whitlock is a developmental psychologist and research scientist emerita from Cornell University, renowned for her work in adolescent mental health and self-injury recovery. In recent years, she has expanded her scholarly pursuits into the realm of UAP studies. As a member of the leadership team of The Visible College, a volunteer collective of scholars dedicated to serious UAP research, Dr. Whitlock explores the intersections of human consciousness, trauma, and anomalous phenomena. Her interdisciplinary approach integrates scientific inquiry with spiritual and psychological perspectives, aiming to deepen our understanding of human potential and the broader implications of UAP encounters. 

We discuss mysterious communication with nonhuman beings, negotiating ontological updates with our peers, and how to keep our heads on straight as we navigate this time of intense change for our species. 

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What's actually going to happen? I've thought hard about it and this is what I think is likely. 

1. A Presidential Address

2. An NHI Reveal

3. A Gradual Realization

In this fun, punchy episode, I tease out these possibilities and drive toward what I think we should be doing to prepare for and encourage them. 

Happy holidays everyone. I wish you and your loved ones all a peaceful, healthy season. 

<3 

Music by John Hubbell: https://mathoftrees.bandcamp.com/album/math-of-trees 

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Dr. Misra is an astrobiologist interested in understanding the origin, distribution, and future of life. His research includes the study of planetary habitability, extraterrestrial life, environmental ethics, and space settlement. 

Jacob contributes to monthly meetings with the Galileo Project, and he supports public funding for UAP research. We discuss the search for exobiology, the state of SETI and METI, and the emerging field of UAP science. 

Jacob's Site: 
https://www.haqqmisra.net/home 

Blue Marble Space: 
https://bmsis.org/ 

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Karin Austin leads both the Center for the Impossible at Rice University and the John Mack Institute.

In the 1990's, Karin worked with the late Harvard psychiatrist, John E. Mack, M.D., contributing her own experiences to his research into the abduction phenomenon, and eventually transitioning into the role of his personal assistant. 

After Dr. Mack's death in 2004, Karin was pivotal in helping Dr. Mack's family close his estate, an effort that eventually led to collaborating with Wilson Research Center's Head of Special Collections, Amanda Focke, and Rice University's Dr. Jeff Kripal, to transfer and digitize a major donation of Dr. Mack's phenomenon-related materials. 

The archives of the Center for the Impossible have grown to include collections from more than a dozen UFO researchers. Karin is leading the effort to digitize these materials, preserving them for future investigation and making them increasingly accessible for scientifically rigorous data analysis. 

The specific nature of this work makes up the bulk of our conversation. We also discuss Karin's views of the phenomenon and her perspective on how humanity should proceed as we steadily learn more about it. 

Show Links: 

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Center for the Impossible Records Collection: https://archives.library.rice.edu/repositories/2/classifications/25?&page=1 

Archives of the Impossible Home: https://impossiblearchives.rice.edu/ 

John Mack Institute Home: http://johnemackinstitute.org/ 

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Andy McGrillen hosts That UFO Podcast, our favorite podcast about UFOs. We talk about ontological resilience, hypotheses for the phenomenon, and the upcoming goals of ufology.

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This episode is primarily visual, so you may enjoy watching on YouTube: https://youtu.be/Dm7qAi2aLb8 

Chad and Caleb walk through a video analysis for the first fifteen minutes, then Chad expands his presentation on potential evidence of warp propulsion in UAP videos for the rest of the show. 

Is this video real? We obviously don't know. It does seem too good to be true, but it has a few details that make it seem potentially real. Neither of us is an expert in special effects, so we'd love to hear what any SFX experts think. 

Chad's First WTUFO: https://youtu.be/NRAY9qFt2UY 

TikTok Video Source: https://www.tiktok.com/@md_ridoy_ahmed145/video/7209117204732841217 

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To some people, this is obvious. To others, it seems unbelievable. In this episode, we explain why we lean heavily toward non-human explanations for UFOs.

Brand Note: We called this show Holding Space for the first 6 episodes. Now we call it WTUFO. It's better, right? We hope you enjoy.

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In September, 2023, the NASA UAP Independent Study Team released its report.  They recommended that NASA investigate UAP, and made detailed proposals about how NASA can generate scientific advances on this topic. 

I found this report refreshingly rigorous. Some outlets covered it as a dismissal of the subject, but I read it as a roadmap to serious research. 

NASA UAP page: https://science.nasa.gov/uap/ 

Cool astronomy plate study: https://www.universetoday.com/163820/in-1952-a-group-of-three-stars-vanished-astronomers-still-cant-find-them/ 

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WTUFO Hearing Page: https://wtufo.com/government-uap-hearings/

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Preston speaks with us entirely in a personal capacity, not representing his organization. 

Preston has built an impressive and varied career as a science communicator, including holding as a Senior Public Engagement Specialist & Story Strategist for NASA's Jet Propulsion Lab, where he helps communicate scientific discoveries from the cutting edge of astronomy. 

We discuss the solar system, the art of science narrative, and how to think clearly about UAP. We had a fun, thoughtful conversation. Hope you enjoy! 

Music by John Hubbell 
https://mathoftrees.bandcamp.com/album/math-of-trees 

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NASA JPL What's Up Series 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTbF6EsIsg4&list=PLTiv_XWHnOZrT_ppDGiT__fI3yjD4t7dI 

Preston's Site 
https://www.prestondyches.com/skywatching 

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Thomas is a movie star. He's played lead roles in major films like The Punisher and The Predator, and TV shows like Hung and The Expanse. He manages entertainment companies, directs, produces and stars in film and TV projects, and writes both fiction and nonfiction. He's also a long-time UFO researcher with a forthcoming book about the phenomenon. 

We talk about the state of human life, the motives, behaviors and diversity of potential visiting NHI, and how we should proceed into the next era of our species' interaction. 

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Links from our chat: 

NICAP 1952 Sightings: https://www.nicap.org/chronos/1952FIXED.htm 

UFOs: The Secret History: https://www.amazon.com/UFOs-Secret-History/dp/1569247013 

Above Top Secret: https://www.amazon.com/Above-Top-Secret-Worldwide-U-F/dp/0688092020 

UFOs and the National Security State 

Part 1 https://www.amazon.com/UFOs-National-Security-State-Chronology/dp/1571743170 

Part 2 https://www.amazon.com/UFOs-National-Security-State-1973-1991/dp/0967799511 

UFOs: Generals, Pilots, and Government Officials Go on the Record https://www.amazon.com/UFOs-Generals-Pilots-Government-Officials/dp/0307717089 

UFOs: A Scientist Explains What We Know (And Don't Know) https://www.amazon.com/UFOs-Scientist-Explains-What-Know/dp/1538173581 

UFO Sightings Desk Reference https://www.amazon.com/UFO-Sightings-Desk-Reference-2001-2015/dp/1544219237

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Dr. Michael Glawson is a philosopher, consultant and podcast host. His teaching and research subjects include the philosophies of religion, technology and science. 

We discuss next steps for UAP studies, the conceptual challenges of engaging with advanced life forms, and what might happen when we learn more about the broad range of phenomena to which UAP connect. 

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Check out Michael's Show Anomalous Review: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLYsa2DMDzyFNJAOuOrt6XSbKEohvETwRc 

Check out Michael's Other Show UAP Studies: https://www.youtube.com/@UAPStudies 

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Jim Garrison directs the Washington DC operations of New Paradigm Institute. We discuss how disclosure will impact the rhythms of human history, how humans can start processing the presence of nonhuman intelligence, and how New Paradigm is preparing to help us communicate with our visitors.

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Dr. Engels teaches philosophy at Molloy University, specializing in existentialism and phenomenology. She also leads Research and Development at the John Mack Institute, where she works to bring experiencer narratives into more scientific and public frameworks, and teaches independent courses on Shamanism and UFO/UAP experiences. 

We discuss the state of experiencer research and the intersection of Dr. Engels' philosophical specialties with the UFO/NHI phenomenon. 

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Dr. Zimmerman has led a long, fruitful career in philosophy and academia, pioneering work on environmental and technological subjects. He also collaborated with John Mack on research into abduction experiences and served on the board of Mack's nonprofit to advance that project. 

We discuss Michael's view of the experiencer phenomenon, his work with Mack, the potential qualities of NHI, and broader topics in consciousness, philosophy, and the nature of reality. 

Dr. Zimmerman's Papers: 

Encountering Alien Otherness 
https://www.academia.edu/82397884/Encountering_Alien_Otherness 

The "Alien Abduction" Phenomenon 
https://philpapers.org/rec/ZIMT-3 

Michael on Wikipedia 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_E._Zimmerman 

John Mack Institute 
http://johnemackinstitute.org/  

Est-Training 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erhard_Seminars_Training 

Ken Wilber 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Wilber 

David Jacobs 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_M._Jacobs 

Communion 
https://www.amazon.com/Audible-Communion/dp/B0B4F3NRCQ 

Program for Extraordinary Experiences 
http://johnemackinstitute.org/2003/01/program-for-extraordinary-experience-research-peer/ 

Bruce Maccabee 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Maccabee 

Chariots of the Gods? 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariots_of_the_Gods%3F 

UFOs and Nukes 
https://www.amazon.com/UFOs-Nukes-Extraordinary-Encounters-Nuclear/dp/1544822197 

Karin Austin 
https://impossiblearchives.rice.edu/john-e-mack-gift-panel-discussion/karin-austin 

Reddit Alleged Alien Autopsy Doc 
https://www.reddit.com/r/aliens/comments/14rp7w9/from_the_late_2000s_to_the_mid2010s_i_worked_as_a/ 

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Dr. Jack Sarfatti is a sparkling, adventurous thinker, and he's been applying his technical acumen to UFOs in various ways for an astounding 70 years. 

Jack says he was charged by the CIA in 1974 with investigating consciousness and UFOs, and in the years since then he believes he has successfully developed physics explanations for both. 

We discuss Dr. Sarfatti's career, his ideas about the physics of UFOs, his intersections with intelligence officers and other serious researchers, and the intriguing childhood event that helped set him on the path of investigating the phenomenon. 

Buckle up for a wild ride and bring your thinking caps. Jack has a freewheeling style that hops across time, space and reality, always with a twinkling grin. 

Show Note ~ Jack mentioned in a comment that he made a mistake toward the end of this conversation. Here's his note: 

@JackSarfatti: "I screwed up at the end. Spin 0,1, 2 create repulsive anti-gravity dark energy. Spin 1/2 creates attractive gravity dark matter." 

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Dr. Sarfatti ~ UAP Physics Primer: https://vimeo.com/554469177 

Dr. Sarfatti ~ Relativity and Warp Drives: https://vimeo.com/878602695 

How the Hippies Saved Physics: https://www.amazon.com/dp/039334231X 

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We go through some of the biggest sightings of UFOs in history, from objects above cities to waves of reports in one location over several years. 

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This audio essay is an invitation to folks who consider themselves rational thinkers. The independent intellectual community is well positioned to lead on UFOs. If you're still hesitant about engaging with this topic, I'll help you reexamine your priors with some clear, objective evidence. Please feel free to contact me on X if you'd like to chat!

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After 80 years of research, reporting and media, ufology is still a nascent field. Both professionally and personally, it has a long way to go.

Today, it faces three main goals. The first is to establish its reason for existing, which is to say convincing people it's worth investigating at all.

The second is to help people navigate the intense worldview disruptions that accompany the information that UFOs are in fact real.

The third is to explore the nature of that reality, from historical research to scientific and spiritual understanding to diplomatic and military engagement.

That can all feel overwhelming, so it helps to peel it apart a bit. We talk calmly through these three elements here to help encourage a grounded approach as we all move forward in this field together.

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Ralph is a distinguished professor, journalist and author with a long and varied career. He's contributed especially significantly to the UFO conversation in recent years with his bombshell reporting and his deep, detailed biography of John Mack, the Harvard psychiatrist who investigated abduction experiences. 

We discuss the experiencer phenomenon, the stubborn mysteries at the heart of UAP research, and how other journalists and news editors can better approach this subject with intellectual rigor. 

Ralph's Faculty Page: https://www.baruch.cuny.edu/profiles/faculty/Ralph-Blumenthal 

"The Believer" John Mack Biography: https://www.amazon.com/Believer-Alien-Encounters-Science-Passion/dp/0826362311 

Ralph's 2017 Times Story: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/16/us/politics/pentagon-program-ufo-harry-reid.html 

2019 Times Story: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/26/us/politics/ufo-sightings-navy-pilots.html 

2023 Debrief Story: https://thedebrief.org/intelligence-officials-say-u-s-has-retrieved-non-human-craft/ 

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Music by John Hubbell: https://mathoftrees.bandcamp.com/album/math-of-trees 

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Join WTUFO YouTube Membership:
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Music by John Hubbell: https://mathoftrees.bandcamp.com/album/math-of-trees 

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Dr. Teodorani's website: https://massimoteodorani.wordpress.com/ 

Jenny Randles book: https://www.amazon.com/Ufo-Retrievals-Recovery-Alien-Spacecraft/dp/0713724935 

Ehrling Strand: https://www.erling-strand.no/english/ 

Dr. Teodorani's Books: https://massimoteodorani.wordpress.com/category/books/ 

Penrose consciousness article: https://philpapers.org/rec/HAMCEA 

SUAPS course Syllabus: https://www.societyforuapstudies.org/_files/ugd/2267bd_991a4c2026b14ca7831642f803818652.pdf 

Afterlife article: 
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/391194735_HOW_CAN_CONSCIOUSNESS_SURVIVE_AFTER_PERMANENT_BODILY_DEATH 

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We go headfirst down the bunny hole and imagine what the UFO phenomenon might be. The possibilities range from extremely unsettling to profoundly exciting. 

One heads up: this episode is what you could call advanced. It's entirely speculative and most of it will sound full on bananas if you're not already into ufology. 

If that sounds fun to you, you're going to have a good time with this one.

Brand Note: This is the last episode where we used the name Holding Space.  Going forward it's all WTUFO, baby. What the UFO??   

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News writers have routinely reported on the Pentagon's careful statements as if they were broad denials. We dig into the details, talk about the legislation that established AARO, and consider how journalists can improve their coverage.

Brand Note: We called this show Holding Space for the first 6 episodes. Now we call it WTUFO. It's better, right? We hope you enjoy. 

If you're enjoying the show and you'd like to help us keep making it, please consider supporting us at patreon.com/WTUFO 

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Chad Wanless is an Engineering Technologist with over 30 years of experience in mechanical design, specializing in optics and lighting technologies. Professor Dave Palachik is a Senior Electrical & Electronic Engineering Technologist, National Director Emeritus of MUFON Canada, and an expert in infrared and electronic security systems. 

We discuss their book "Hidden in Plain Sight: Evidence of Exotic UFO Propulsion," which proposes that UAP create visible gravitational lensing around themselves. This theory provides a promising avenue for future research, and implies that these craft may use some form of spacetime warping drive. 

Music by John Hubbell https://mathoftrees.bandcamp.com/album/math-of-trees 

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Support WTUFO https://www.patreon.com/wtufo 

Show Links: 

Chad and Dave's Book: https://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Plain-Sight-Evidence-Propulsion-ebook/dp/B0F2N7KNKJ/ 

MUFON Canada https://mufoncanada.com/ 

UFO Video Described in Episode https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxhWDaA7qK4 

The Rubber Duck UFO Video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcZ_Zb0GdI4 

Rob Freeman UFO World Explorer, Marysburgh episode https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcxBDE1ZeFo 

Harold White https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_G._White 

UFO DAP https://ufodap.com/ 

ACE - alien cosmic expo 

CSSAA (site under construction) https://cssaa.org/ 

Santilli - Dark Light  https://www.researchgate.net/publication/304339066_Apparent_Detection_via_New_Telescopes_with_Concave_Lenses_of_Otherwise_Invisible_Terrestrial_Entities_ITE 

Chad and Dave's Contact Page https://true-experiences.ca/ 

Chad on X https://x.com/CWanlessAuthor 

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We figure it's fair to start the show with what we think so far.

As we get more information, our views may change, but as of recording, this was our understanding of the situation. Caleb lays out his takes in the first episode and John follows in the second. 

Brand Note: We called this show Holding Space for the first 6 episodes. Now we call it WTUFO. It's better, right? We hope you like it.

Finally, Caleb says the word "militarial" in this episode, and you can rest assured that he feels appropriately stupid about this. 

If you're enjoying the show and you'd like to help us keep making it, please consider supporting us at patreon.com/WTUFO

Original Air Date: January 9, 2024

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I've been making WTUFO since the summer of 2024, so I take an episode here to share what I think is happening with UFOs, what my show is for, and what we should all do about this wild situation. 

Thank you for listening! 

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The bullet points I cover in this episode are: 

1. What Is Happening?

• a) NHI on Earth
• b) Military Secrets
• c) Emerging Physics

2. What Is WTUFO For?

• a) Normalizing the UFO Conversation 
• b) Exploring Different Perspectives 
• c) Finding Action Steps

3. What Should We Do?

• a) Wake People Up
• b) Fund More Science
• c) Engage Publicly With NHI

I'd love to hear what you think! Come chime in on YouTube or at the show's Patreon Page.

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Lacey is an author, vlogger and spiritual researcher. We discuss her investigations into spiritual realities, her UFO sighting, and her experience of encountering an unidentified being. 

Show Links: 

Music by John Hubbell: https://mathoftrees.bandcamp.com/album/math-of-trees 

Spacefare Shop: https://spacefare.etsy.com/ 

Support WTUFO on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/WTUFO 

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Lacey's Book: https://www.amazon.com/Seek-Ye-Shall-Find-Gateway/dp/B0C9SDCGF6 

Lacey’s Being Encounter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4f9UE8rEw6c 

Links from Lacey: 

"What the Vedas say about extraterrestrial life?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3cJ2BIM4X4 

"The lower planets (understanding the Vedic Universe #3)"
https://youtu.be/WSa0v4-j-WI?si=MW9T4kXZgU7ARcd5 

"Higher and Lower Realms of the Vedic Universe (Devas and Asuras)"
https://youtu.be/8IMANoh4Mus?si=YH2B3rwzZQWhccbW 

"Upper Planets and Celestial Beings (Understanding the Vedic Universe #2)"
https://youtu.be/VABMTfz13AI?si=REvB5W3ozPbOv0Av 

"The Mysterious Universe of the Vedas (Vedic Cosmology, new series #1)"
https://youtu.be/IfU5ERlTqpQ?si=8N1Xfmv6goA56R8o 

Examples of the Spirit realm on TV: 

Green Snake Trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iso7KRWhjNk (Asuraville) 

The Monkey King (which is about the Spirit realms) https://youtu.be/5vc_ndiUMcg?si=dV0dAqWVcjYKmeti 

Elemental Kingdoms/ Spirit realm: "Ice Fantasy"  (Kind of like Avatar the last Airbender with the Elements) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h86VphklkSE 

What happens in the Afterlife? "Defending your life" 1991 - https://www.bitchute.com/video/LKmo7L7A32h1 

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Dr. Stephen Bruehl cowrote two blockbuster papers on transient points of light in 1950s astronomy pictures. He explains to us why these findings are unlikely to be anything other than reflective physical objects in geosynchronous orbit. 

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Multiple Transients Paper: https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1538-3873/ae0afe 

Nuclear Association Paper: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-025-21620-3 

Press Release: https://www.su.se/english/news/unexpected-patterns-in-historical-astronomical-observations-1.855042 

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Dr. Matthew Szydagis teaches physics at the University at Albany and researches dark matter with the Lux-Zeplin project. He's also a scientist with UAPx where he participated in the first UAP expedition in 2021. 

We discuss funding for UAP research, what UAPx learned from their expedition and what they'd like to do next, potential explanations for UAP behavior, and other topics. 

UAPx Expedition Paper: https://arxiv.org/abs/2312.00558 

Matthew's Catastrophic Disclosure Paper: https://arxiv.org/abs/2410.12738 

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Dr. Uhall teaches political theory and the history of thought at Indiana University and works as an administrator in research and strategy at the University of Illinois. He's working on a book called "Theory of the Alien."

We discuss conceptual structures related to humans, nature, space and aliens, and explore the academic theory work necessary to prepare for potential contact with extraterrestrial intelligence.

Michael's First Book: https://rowman.com/ISBN/9781666922530/Noir-Materialism-Freedom-and-Obligation-in-Political-Ecology

Michael's Website: https://www.michaeluhall.com/ 

Bohlander on ET Contact: https://www.amazon.com/Contact-Extraterrestrial-Intelligence-Human-Applicability/dp/9004677690 

Wright on Deep Space Warfare: https://www.amazon.com/Deep-Space-Warfare-Military-Strategy-ebook/dp/B0841RSDZR/ 

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Dr. Brannon Wheeler teaches history of religion, Middle East, and the Bible at the United States Naval Academy in Annapolis. He's authored and edited several books on these topics, including Mecca and Eden: Ritual, Relics, and Territory in Islam (Chicago, 2016) and Animal Sacrifice and the Origins of Islam (Cambridge, 2022). Professor Wheeler received his PhD from the University of Chicago and has held visiting positions throughout the Middle East and Europe. 

We discuss the overlap between religious mythology and UFO experiences, the potential nature of communication with advanced psychic beings, and the path forward for academic engagement with the wide-ranging implications of UAP.

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I'd like to start a conversation here and invite you to participate. Please meet us on our YouTube Community page to engage in the discussion: https://www.youtube.com/@WhatTheUFO/community

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Kevin Wright is a public relations and communications expert. He focuses on edge science issues and advises the Scientific Coalition for UAP Studies’ (SCU) Board of Directors on public affairs and public relations and is a consultant to Daniel Sheehan’s New Paradigm Institute. Wright is also a weekly columnist for the Roswell Daily Record. 

Wright’s company Solve Advocacy helps clients navigate the complex and evolving landscape of public perception, media attention, and policy implications related to topics such as UAP, consciousness, and more.

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Robert Powell is a co-founder and Executive Board Member of the Scientific Coalition for UAP Studies. He served as Director of Research at MUFON from 2007-2017 and created their Science Review Board. Robert holds a BS in Chemistry and co-holds four patents related to nanotechnology from his years managing Research and Development of semiconductors at AMD. 

 We discuss his excellent book "UFOs: A Scientist Explains What We Know (And Don't Know)," including what UAP science must do next, what might account for some of the extraordinary behavior of UAP, and how and whether we should attempt to communicate with potential NHI.  

Get Robert's book here: https://www.amazon.com/UFOs-Scientist-Explains-What-Know/dp/1538173581 

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Dr. Determann is the author of Islam, Science Fiction and Extraterrestrial Life: The Culture of Astrobiology in the Muslim World and a professor of history at Virginia Commonwealth University in Qatar. He joins WTUFO to explore intersections between the UAP phenomenon and Islamic thought.  

Islam, Science Fiction and Extraterrestrial Life: The Culture of Astrobiology in the Muslim World:  https://www.amazon.com/Islam-Science-Fiction-Extraterrestrial-Life/dp/0755650360 

Islamic Theology and Extraterrestrial Life: New Frontiers in Science and Religion: https://www.amazon.com/Islam-Science-Fiction-Extraterrestrial-Life/dp/0755601270 

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Brett's faculty page: https://mcgrath.nd.edu/about/faculty-staff/brett-robinson-ph-d/ 

Brett's Documentary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RA0ah6Xmqus 

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1. Cultivate Converations
2. Fund and Organize Science
3. Hold Government Accountable
4. Educate and Encourage the Media
5. Publicly Contact Nonhuman Intelligences

Happy New Year, everyone! Wishing you a fun, successful 2026. 

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We wrote this episode for people new to UFOs, and for UFO enthusiasts looking for better ways to talk to skeptical friends and family members.

We mention a large number of sources, so for full quotes and links to original documents, check out the article version of this episode here:  https://wtufo.com/ufo-probability-logic/

If you like our show, it's a huge help to us if you share it, even with a few folks.

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Thank you for listening!

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Michael Kelly uses the skills from his philosophy degree and graduate-level teaching assistant work to research reports of encounters with nonhuman beings. He is a research fellow at the Archives of the Impossible, though he appears here entirely in a personal capacity. 

We discuss the striking data that emerges from experiencer reports, from the kinds of beings people report meeting to the types of encounters they describe. Michael shares data graphics in the YouTube version of this episode, which you can find here https://youtu.be/WXpbtZJBTVQ 

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Alejandro is president and CEO of the non-profit UAP Discovery and a consultant for Enigma Labs, which has developed a UAP reporting app and alert network. He also runs the UAP news website OpenMinds.tv. Alejandro is a founding member of the Scientific Coalition for UAP Studies (SCU) and a former board member. He is also the former functioning director of education and spokesperson for the Mutual UFO Network (MUFON). He has spent over 20 years researching and writing about UFOs and over ten years as a full-time employee doing this work. Alejandro's articles have appeared in the Huffington Post and Den of Geek, and he's been featured in numerous documentaries, television shows, and news interviews. 

We discuss common UFO sighting mistakes, the state of UAP science, and best practices for healthy dialogue on this exciting and sometimes heated subject. 

Alejandro's Links: https://linktr.ee/alejandrotrojas 

UAP Discovery: https://uapdiscovery.org/ 

Enigma Labs: https://www.enigmalabs.io/ 

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Deborah holds two master's degrees and built a career directing the administration of health science libraries and other specialized collections. She comes to the UAP topic as a curious learner with a passion for organizing information. 

In this episode, Deborah and Caleb lay out their rundown of introductory resources for people learning about UAP, from books to podcasts to supporting documents of various kinds. 

They've started gathering some of these documents in the UAP Resources page of wtufo.com here: https://wtufo.com/category/uap-resources/ 

 One correction: Caleb describes the New Paradigm Institute as an academic organization in this episode, and that's really more the province of its partner Ubiquity University. New Paradigm Institute is a nonprofit advocacy organization focused mostly on raising awareness of UAP and working toward military transparency, including by pursuing legal action. You can check out their site here: https://newparadigminstitute.org/ 

 And Ubiquity University here: https://www.ubiquityuniversity.org/ 

Deb's CV: https://library.missouri.edu/contactus/ward/ 

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Stephanie Dwilson is a licensed attorney with a master's in science in science and technology journalism.

She founded The Verified Report to cover UAP news from a serious, unbiased perspective. Check out her work here: https://theverifiedreport.com/

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Jordan leads the nonprofit Disclosure Foundation, a nonprofit supporting policy, legal and education actions to advance official disclosure and coordinate societal response thereto. He comes to this role after a 20-year career in corporate finance—he's a sharp tack and a good guy. We're honored to host him and learn about his work. Hope you enjoy!

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Stephen Bassett is the first UFO disclosure lobbyist. He's been working to end the military truth embargo on UAP for over 20 years. 

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More about Stephen: 

Stephen Bassett has spoken to audiences in 20 countries about the political implications of UAP/ET phenomena and Disclosure - the formal confirmation by heads of state of an extraterrestrial presence engaging the human race. He is co-founder of the Hollywood Disclosure Alliance and executive director of Paradigm Research Group, a 501c3 non-profit providing education, consulting, analysis and political activism for a post-Disclosure world. 

His advocacy work has been well covered by national and international media including CNN, Fox News, MSNBC, Washington Post and New York Times. Bassett has appeared in many documentary films and his lectures and interviews are well represented on YouTube. 

In 2013 PRG organized and conducted a "Citizen Hearing on Disclosure" at the National Press Club in Washington. In November of 2014 PRG launched a two-year political initiative out of Washington, DC that injected the ET issue into the 2016 presidential campaign. 

In December 2023, Steve Co-Founded The Hollywood Disclosure Alliance in Los Angeles, a new, media-centric organization aiming to align those working within the UAP/ET research arena with writers/directors/producers working across every facet of the global entertainment industry. 

PRG recently launched an activist project - Shift Storm - seeking UAP hearings as soon as possible before the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence. 

Main website: www.paradigmresearchgroup.org 

HDA:  www.hollywooddisclosurealliance.org 

Shift  Storm: www.shiftstorm.org 

PRG Media coverage: https://paradigmresearchgroup.org/prg-media-coverage/ 

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The general attitude about UFOs is dismissive, but is that what the facts suggest? We lay out an argument for humility and curiosity about this intriguing subject.

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Gary Voorhis Jr. is a Co-Founder and President of UAPx, and a direct witness of the 2004 UAP encounters by the U.S.S. Nimitz carrier group leading up to the famous Tic Tac incident. 

We discuss Gary's experience in 2004 witnessing the strange radar and visual phenomena, and the instructions he received by the unidentified officers who came to confiscate the footage. 

We also cover his work with UAPx, a science organization seeking funding to produce and install sensor arrays to collect reliable UAP data. 

Gary mentions this forthcoming paper from UAPx on the results of their first field expedition: https://arxiv.org/abs/2312.00558 

For related work, check out our interview with Dr. Kevin Knuth and look out for our upcoming interview with Dr. Matthew Szydagis. 

And if you know how to write grants, and you want to help with UAP science, consider giving UAPx a call! 

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Why do we see UFOs frequently but not all the time? It seems like they must be hiding to some extent, but they've still made many appearances over the years. We go through all the explanations we can think of to explain this semi-cautious behavior.

Brand Note: We called this show Holding Space for the first 6 episodes. Now we call it WTUFO. It's better, right? We hope you enjoy.   

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Brenda is a mostly retired writer, editor, and sometime speaker currently living in rural North Carolina. She received her Ph.D. in religious studies from Duke University in 1998 and is the author of The Lure of the Edge: Scientific Passions, Religious Beliefs, and the Pursuit of UFOs, (University of California Press, 2001), a couple of invited chapters in scholarly books on religion and the UFO sub-culture, and a few articles on UFOs and religion. Her current interest is in mining humanity’s folkloric and religious traditions to better understand the provenance and nature of “the gods,” the gentry, elementals, jinn, angels/demons, and similar entities in terms that treat them as something other than fictions with no more substance than mirrors into which we look to regulate, console, or understand ourselves as human beings.

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Leslie Kean has done more than almost anyone else to advance the contemporary UFO conversation. Her 2017 New York Times article changed the landscape overnight by introducing the world to the Navy UFO videos, Lue Elizondo, and AATIP. In 2019, she reported on pilot sightings by Ryan Graves and others in another widely read Times article. In 2023, she broke the story of David Grusch's whistleblower report in a famous piece for The Debrief. 

Leslie wrote her first UFO story in 2000 for the Boston Globe, and in 2011, she published her book "UFOs: Generals, Pilots, and Government Officials Go on the Record," which remains one of the clearest and most useful works ever written on this challenging topic. 

She also produces the series "UFOs: Investigating the Unknown," which offers an excellent, serious introduction to the subject. Both seasons are available now here: https://www.hulu.com/series/4c1070e7-5b4d-46e1-a5ee-b9eb0c7db18c 

Finally, Leslie has explored other mysterious phenomena in her book "Surviving Death: A Journalist Explores the Evidence for an Afterlife," which was adapted by Netflix for a series of the same name: https://www.netflix.com/title/80998853 

We're extremely grateful to Leslie for her sharp, clear, insightful and courageous work, and we're honored that she shared her time and wisdom with us for this conversation. 

Show note—we discuss the Wilson-Davis memo briefly, but only to establish its provenance. The TLDR on this document is that it contains the notes from an alleged conversation between physicist Eric Davis and Admiral Thomas R. Wilson. According to these notes, Wilson told Davis that in his role as Director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, he uncovered a secret UFO crash retrieval and reverse engineering program while conducting an audit of Defense expenditures, and the program heads refused to give him direct access, despite his high rank. The Admiral has called this memo fiction, but as we discuss in this episode, he may have been legally required to do so if the program was or is real. You can read the memo in full here, or access the Congressional record version below: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/20074164-wilson-davis-document/ 

~ Show Links ~ 

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Leslie's Site: https://www.lesliekean.com/ 

Leslie's UFO Show: https://www.hulu.com/series/4c1070e7-5b4d-46e1-a5ee-b9eb0c7db18c 

Leslie's UFO Book: https://www.amazon.com/UFOs-Generals-Pilots-Government-Officials/dp/0307717089/ 

Leslie's Afterlife Book: https://www.amazon.com/Surviving-Death-Journalist-Investigates-Afterlife/dp/0451497147/ 

2020 Globe Article: https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-boston-globe-leslie-kean-boston-ufo/148614188/ 

2017 Times Article: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/16/us/politics/pentagon-program-ufo-harry-reid.html 

2019 Times Article: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/26/us/politics/ufo-sightings-navy-pilots.html 

2023 Debrief Article: https://thedebrief.org/intelligence-officials-say-u-s-has-retrieved-non-human-craft/ 

Wilson-Davis Memo (Congressional Record Version):  https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/20074164-wilson-davis-document/ 

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Daniel Otis is an investigative journalist who covers UAP for Canadian and international news organizations. He works primarily with direct reports and documents, often retrieved by legal information requests.

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Tim's Site: www.theageofcommunication.com

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Once you start thinking about UFOs, it can be hard to talk with people who don't know much about them. 

We explore ideas about how to approach the tricky topic and share some stories about how this has gone for us so far. 

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A fun one for the end of 2025—this is my honest best guess about what's going on with UFOs. All the details from their origin to the time they've been here to their overarching agenda. Just pure, unfiltered, wild-eyed speculation. Hope you enjoy! 

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They don't teach UFOs in school, so most people don't know much about them. Because of that, most people make a series of assumptions about UFOs that aren't necessarily well-founded.

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