After serving churches for nearly three decades, Dennis was diagnosed with early-onset Parkinson's disease. He quietly carried the diagnosis for years before the progression of the disease forced him to step away from the pastorate he loved. 

In this deeply honest conversation, Dennis reflects on grief, identity, suffering, and why choosing gratitude isn't about denying pain but discovering God's faithfulness in the middle of it.

Key Takeaways

• Unexpected health challenges can reshape both ministry and identity.
• Grief is a natural part of leaving a calling you deeply love.
• Gratitude isn't the absence of suffering but a response to God's faithfulness within it.
• Ministry leaders need purpose beyond the title they hold.
• God often brings deep spiritual formation through seasons we would never choose.

Chapter Markers

00:00 Dennis' pastoral journey and ministry background

01:45 An early Parkinson's diagnosis changes everything

03:30 Why Dennis kept his diagnosis private for years

07:45 Telling the church and preparing for transition

11:00 Missing ministry more than expected

13:15 Becoming a caregiver and navigating family transition

14:30 Holy discontent and living with purpose

16:20 Choosing gratitude through suffering

20:00 The dark night of the soul and spiritual formation

25:30 Encouragement for leaders whose ministry ended unexpectedly

If you're facing a ministry transition or unexpected life change, start a conversation with a specialist at Ministry Transitions. Learn more about Dennis and his book Choosing Gratitude at Market Square Books.

After serving six years in Germany, Nate and Brittany Bruns share the unexpected challenges of returning to the United States, navigating reverse culture shock, raising third-culture kids, and rebuilding community.

Ultimately, they discovered God was calling them to live as missionaries in their own country. 

Their story offers practical encouragement for missionaries, churches, and anyone walking through an unexpected ministry transition.

Key Takeaways

• Reverse culture shock can be more difficult than moving overseas.
• Missionary transitions affect spouses, children, and the entire family.
• God often prepares leaders for future seasons long before they understand why.
• Returning missionaries bring valuable wisdom that can strengthen the local church.
• Waiting on God is an active posture of trust, not passive inactivity.

Chapter Markers

00:00 Job loss, the desert season, and God's unexpected call to Germany

04:30 Reaching a post-Christian culture through relationships

07:15 When God said it was time to come home

11:15 Reverse culture shock and becoming strangers in your own country

16:00 Helping third-culture kids navigate transition

20:15 How churches can better care for returning missionaries

23:30 What America can learn from post-Christian Europe

26:45 Financial transitions and rebuilding support

30:00 Waiting on God and discerning what's next

34:00 The Bruns Tribe and engaging the spiritually disengaged

36:30 Encouragement for missionaries in transition

If you're navigating a ministry transition, we'd love to help. Start a conversation with a specialist at Ministry Transitions. Learn more about Nate and Brittany's ministry at The Bruns Tribe.

While Will Acuff was helping build a nonprofit that would eventually launch thousands of entrepreneurs and transform communities, his family was walking through years of exhaustion, medical challenges, and uncertainty. 

The contrast forced him to confront a difficult question: what happens when the strategies that helped you succeed no longer work?

In this conversation, Will shares the lessons he learned through leadership succession, personal suffering, and the unexpected journey that led him to write No Elevator to Everest. 

For leaders facing transition, burnout, or uncertainty, this episode offers a hopeful vision for finding joy that is not dependent on circumstances.

• Succession works best when leadership development starts long before the transition.
• Healthy transitions require trust, coaching, and ongoing support after the handoff.
• High-capacity leaders often struggle to acknowledge their own pain and limitations.
• Joy is cultivated through intentional practices, not favorable circumstances.
• Faithful leadership requires both knowledge of God and honest knowledge of ourselves.

00:00 Welcome and Will's ministry background

03:45 Launching Corner to Corner and helping entrepreneurs escape poverty

07:50 Why the Church should lead community transformation

11:10 Succession planning and transitioning leadership as a founder

19:55 Parenting through complex disabilities and chronic hardship

24:00 Creating a "joy lab" in the middle of suffering

29:00 The story behind No Elevator to Everest

31:00 Advice for burned-out ministry leaders

35:00 Finding joy in the middle of hard

35:40 Resources, book, and final encouragement

If you're navigating a ministry transition or leadership challenge, start a conversation with a specialist at Ministry Transitions. Learn more about Will's work at Corner to Corner and his book at No Elevator to Everest.

Whether it is a pastor navigating succession, a nonprofit executive facing organizational change, or a CEO realizing old leadership methods no longer work, the pressure to appear confident and certain can quietly isolate leaders from the people they serve. 

In this conversation, Jim Brown shares why healthy leadership begins when leaders stop trying to be the hero of the organization and start building collaborative cultures where people feel valued, empowered, and trusted.

Together, we explore the emotional realities underneath leadership transitions, difficult staffing decisions, and organizational change. 

They discuss why so many leaders stay too long, how fear often disguises itself as faithfulness, and why humility and vulnerability are becoming essential leadership qualities in today’s world. 

The conversation offers practical wisdom for ministry leaders who want to navigate transition seasons with greater clarity, courage, and care.

• Healthy leadership creates space for others to contribute instead of positioning the leader as the hero.
• Vulnerability from leaders gives teams permission to be honest, collaborative, and engaged.
• Most organizational problems are people and culture problems before they become strategy problems.
• Transition conversations are rarely perfect, but avoiding them often causes greater harm.
• Fear keeps many leaders in roles long after their season has changed.

00:00 Welcome and introducing Jim Brown

01:40 Why leadership perfection is impossible

04:00 How leadership expectations have changed

06:50 Why today’s leaders need humility and flexibility

08:30 Building collaborative cultures that empower people

12:30 Vulnerability, mistakes, and healthier leadership

13:40 The framework behind The Imperfect CEO

19:30 Helping leaders overcome imposter syndrome

20:50 Why transitions are never perfectly executed

24:00 Difficult staffing conversations and leadership courage

26:40 Why some ministry leaders stay too long

28:00 Resources for churches and healthy leadership

• • Start a conversation with the Ministry Transitions team: https://ministrytransitions.com
  • Explore free leadership transition resources: https://ministrytransitions.com/resources

The Imperfect CEO – Jim Brown’s upcoming book releasing May 19:

• Order your copy immediately at https://www.amazon.ca/gp/aw/d/1637749023
• For the best deals, order bulk at https://imperfectceobook.com/

Connect with Jim Brown:

• LinkedIn: @authorjimbrown
• Instagram: @orghealthteam
• Facebook: OrgHealth

In this conversation, Dr. Andrew Hale shares why he believes the Church is not collapsing but entering a moment of reformation. 

Together, we explore how ministry leaders can stop treating non-essential issues as ultimate ones, rebuild authentic community, and lead congregations toward healthier relationships rooted in Christ instead of cultural division.

• Conflict in the Church is not new, but today’s divisions are being amplified by politics and cultural anxiety.
• Many churches have elevated non-essential issues above the central mission of Jesus.
• Ministry leaders are carrying unrealistic expectations while trust in institutions continues to decline.
• Healthy churches create space for diverse perspectives and authentic relationships.
• This cultural moment may be less about the collapse of the Church and more about a needed reformation.

• 00:00 — Andrew Hale’s ministry background and love for the Church
• 03:00 — Why churches are becoming more divided
• 07:42 — Organizational psychology and understanding conflict
• 09:16 — Essential vs. non-essential issues in the Church
• 16:18 — Declining trust in institutions and ministry burnout
• 19:12 — Have we placed too much pressure on pastors?
• 23:19 — Why this moment may be reformation, not collapse
• 27:24 — Political idolatry and the future of the Church
• 30:57 — Where to find Dr. Andrew Hale and his book

If this conversation resonated with you, we’d encourage you to take the next step. Whether you’re navigating conflict, leadership transition, succession planning, or simply trying to lead your church through a complicated season with wisdom and clarity, the team at Ministry Transitions is here to help. 

You can also learn more from Dr. Andrew Hale’s work on church health, division, and renewal at AndrewRHale.com and explore his book Mending the Fracturing Church wherever books are sold.

In this candid conversation, Joshua Gordon traces his journey from ministry-adjacent entrepreneur to a surprising new assignment after his business collapsed in COVID. A trusted friend’s hard words, deep prayer, and patient community became “spiritual physio” that restored his sense of self in Christ.

We talk about the gap between intention and impact in church transitions, why being “driven” can hide quiet desperation, and how to hear God’s still small voice before things are literally on fire. 

Josh shares the practical and pastoral moves that protected his marriage, his kids, and his future calling.

If you are a leader facing an ending, a board guiding one, or a pastor recovering from one, this episode offers language, wisdom, and hope. Faithfulness isn’t empire building. It’s walking with Jesus in ordinary choices that shape a lifetime.

• Intention without action creates collateral damage in transitions.
• “Driven” can be desperation in disguise; identity must relocate from role to Christ.
• God often speaks through memory, community, and quiet checks in the soul.
• Invite truth-telling friends. Love risks being misunderstood to protect you.
• Over-preparation can be control; trust requires limits on our need to manage outcomes.
• Measure success by faithfulness to Jesus and people, not by platform.
• Healthy endings open a window for deep heart work and future freedom.

• 00:00 Cold open, Canadians and calling
• 03:20 Intention vs impact in church transitions
• 07:30 PK expectations and disillusionment
• 10:20 Building a ministry-minded business
• 12:40 COVID collapse and costly layoffs
• 16:20 Untangling identity from role
• 18:45 A memory from God that exposed motive
• 28:55 “Physio” for the soul and daily trust
• 38:00 Friendship that told the hard truth
• 47:50 Closing one work, starting another
• 52:15 Learning to follow quiet discernment
• 59:30 Wealth redefined: family, faith, and freedom
• 1:04:15 Kingdom over empire, final blessing

If you’re facing a ministry transition - or helping someone through one - visit MinistryTransitions.com to find confidential guidance, resources, and hope for what’s next.

For more from Joshua Gordon and The Lead Pastor, visit here: https://theleadpastor.com/ 

In this conversation, Steve names the real costs: the silence inside the institution, the “values higher than the chaos” that guided him, and the morning-after reality that there was no job, no safety net, and no way to control the narrative.

He talks about the anger he absorbed, the outside leaders who showed up, and the therapist’s hard question that kept him from repeating patterns.

But the story doesn’t end in exile. It moves through a real wilderness - grief, breathing, waiting - and into a humbler, healthier life: moving back to the Midwest, choosing place over platform, and becoming the lead pastor at Christ Church. What emerges is a field guide for anyone facing a crisis of integrity in Christian leadership.

• Integrity over institutional preservation: Trust is sacred; don’t trade it for optics.
• Name “values higher than the chaos”: Decide in advance what you won’t violate when pressure comes.
• Healing is not transferable: There’s first-hand wounding and first-hand healing; your family needs its own path.
• Interrogate attraction to unhealthy systems: Ask why certain leaders and cultures feel “safe.”
• Grief takes the time it takes: Practice a Holy Saturday rhythm - don’t rush from Friday to Sunday.
• Choose place over platform: Calling is often geographic and relational, not positional.
• Lead from scars, not spin: Wounds can become witness when truth is told and humility is practiced.

• 00:00 — Cold open: Why transitions are never just “staff changes”
• 04:53 — “These are my people”: the early joy at Willow
• 06:47 — Crisis emerges; what repentance would have required
• 09:14 — The headlines drop; “I won’t play with people’s trust”
• 11:52 — Who can you trust when the room is spinning?
• 17:22 — Six options, and why pastoring again wasn’t one of them
• 19:26 — Therapist’s jolt: “Why are you drawn to narcissists?”
• 22:16 — Outside support vs. inside backlash; the binder of messages
• 25:34 — Reframing the anger; learning what people were really saying
• 27:59 — Starbucks incident; a son’s question about “reward”
• 33:25 — Grieve, Breathe, Receive: the Holy Weekend framework
• 36:53 — Wilderness theology: disorientation to reorientation
• 39:36 — Reentry: discerning a safe, healthy church
• 41:33 — “Steve of Chicagoland”: called to a place, not a position
• 43:50 — Inner Hybels and inner Ortberg: action and formation
• 47:20 — Staying in touch; practicing faithfulness, not fame

If you’re walking through a ministry transition or facing hard decisions about leadership, you don’t have to do it alone. Visit MinistryTransitions.com to explore resources, donate to support a leader in the thick of change, or book a confidential call.

You can also learn more about Steve Carter’s ministry and resources through Christ Church of Oak Brook and by picking up his book Grieve, Breathe, Receive at stevecarter.org/book.

What happens when pastors hang on too long or find themselves suddenly cut off from ministry?

In part two of our conversation with Gene Getz on Life After Ministry, we tackle this crucial issue head-on. With over 50 years in ministry and 20 years post-succession, Gene offers practical wisdom on how to prepare for life after ministry, including avoiding bitterness, maintaining humility, and finding a new calling.

He shares how his own transition didn’t end his impact - in fact, it led to creating the world’s first multimedia study Bible.

For those wrestling with disappointment, Gene’s advice is clear: Don’t let anger turn to bitterness, and be ready to serve God in new ways, even when the path forward feels uncertain.

This episode is a must-listen for any pastor navigating the complexities of ministry transitions. Whether you’re nearing retirement or facing an unexpected exit, Gene’s wisdom and experience can guide you through the emotional, spiritual, and practical challenges of stepping away from the pulpit.

His message offers hope: there is a way to transition well, with grace and a lasting impact.

Takeaways

• Ministry transitions can be challenging and require wisdom, humility, and proactive thinking.
• Succession planning should involve the development of a team of supportive individuals who can provide guidance and accountability.
• Pastors who are transitioning out of ministry should consider developing a second ministry career or finding ways to fill the void left by their previous role.
• Dealing with disappointment and anger is important for pastors who have left ministry, and seeking help and forgiveness can aid in the healing process.
• Having a godly and supportive board is crucial for pastors, and addressing board dynamics is essential for a healthy ministry.
• Support and resources are needed for pastors who are transitioning out of ministry to navigate the challenges and uncertainties of their next season.

Chapters

Imagine achieving what seems like ministry success on the outside - leading a growing church, serving a vibrant congregation - while internally battling crippling anxiety, sleepless nights, and the haunting thought of leaving it all behind.

In this episode of Life After Ministry, Matt Davis sits down with John Opalewski of Converge Coaching to explore how ministry leaders can hit their breaking point despite outward success.

John shares his personal journey of going from thriving youth pastor to suicidal depression as a senior pastor, and the hard-won lessons about self-care, boundaries, and the crucial role of mental health in ministry. Together, they tackle the question: how can pastors prevent burnout and find lasting fulfillment in both ministry and life?

1. Workaholism and Neglect: Many pastors fall into the trap of overworking, neglecting their personal health, friendships, and boundaries, which often leads to burnout and depression.
2. The Power of Honest Conversations: Addressing difficult emotions like anger and setting clear boundaries in ministry are vital for long-term emotional and mental health.
3. Support from the Church Board: While a pastor’s well-being is their own responsibility, church boards can support this by providing resources like counseling and coaching.
4. Depression Doesn't Define You: Depression isn't the end of your story. There are paths to recovery, healing, and a healthier way to live and serve in ministry.
5. There is Life After Ministry: Ministry may take new forms, but the pastoral calling can continue beyond the pulpit, even in marketplace roles or other creative avenues.

1. "Burnout doesn’t come from chasing Jesus - it comes from chasing people or ideas that never seem to come to fruition."
2. "Depression is not the final chapter in your story. There’s a way out, and it starts with finding a safe place to share."
3. "Your calling follows you wherever you go. It may look different, but it never leaves you."

• [00:00] Introduction – Matt welcomes John Opalewski to discuss his ministry journey and transition.
• [00:33] Early Calling into Ministry – John shares how he found his call to ministry through discipleship.
• [02:44] Entry into Pastoral Ministry – John describes his path to becoming a lead pastor and how it lacked preparation for the emotional challenges.
• [05:40] Challenges as a Lead Pastor – The immense pressure of being a senior pastor at 29, with a lack of boundaries and emotional maturity.
• [06:31] The Impact of Anger and Boundaries – How John's inability to manage anger and set boundaries led to emotional damage.
• [11:43] Role of the Elder Board in Supporting Pastors – John reflects on how boards can create space for preventive care for pastors’ mental health.
• [14:28] John's Breakdown – John recounts the moment he fell into suicidal depression, despite outward success in ministry.
• [19:38] Deciding to Leave Ministry – After two years of recovery, John decides to step down as lead pastor.
• [21:47] Transitioning into the Marketplace – John's surprising peace after leaving ministry and entering the corporate world.
• [24:21] Being Called Pastor After Stepping Down – John shares his mixed emotions when people continued to address him as “pastor” after he left.
• [25:45] Founding Converge Coaching – How John’s transition led to starting Converge Coaching to help pastors prevent burnout and stay healthy.
• [28:47] The Growing Need for Pastoral Care – John highlights the staggering burnout rates among pastors and the importance of coaching and support.
• [31:57] Words of Encouragement – John speaks directly to pastors facing burnout or depression, offering hope and guidance.
• [34:35] How to Connect with Converge Coaching – John explains the simple on-ramp to getting help through Converge Coaching.
• [35:59] Is There Life After Ministry? – John reassures listeners that ministry doesn't end after stepping away from the pulpit—your calling continues in new forms.

Summary

Dane Sanders shares his journey from vocational ministry to his current work with Men and Women of Discomfort. He discusses the challenges faced in vocational ministry and the need for better transitions and support within the Christian community.

Dane explains the concept of Men and Women of Discomfort, a program that focuses on intentional discomfort to foster personal growth and strength. The goal is to be strong and awake for love's sake. He emphasizes the importance of community in this process and the power of suffering together.

This conversation explores the power of community and authentic confession in the context of discomfort. It highlights the difference between Men and Women of Discomfort and other programs, emphasizing the focus on wholeheartedness rather than perfection.

The conversation delves into the concept of the Valley of Discomfort and the temptation to return to comfort, using the story of the buffalo as a metaphor for running towards the storm. It emphasizes the importance of perspective and purpose in suffering and encourages individuals to choose to embrace discomfort and not waste the season.

The conversation also discusses shifting from 'I have to' to 'I get to' and relating to discomfort as building a cathedral. Finally, it offers guidance on taking the next step and getting in touch with Men and Women of Discomfort.

Takeaways

• Vocational ministry often comes with challenges and transitions that can be difficult to navigate.

• The Christian community can struggle with effectively supporting individuals going through these transitions.

• Men and Women of Discomfort is a program that focuses on intentional discomfort to foster personal growth and strength.

• The goal is to be strong and awake for love's sake, living a life that is fully engaged and aligned with one's values.

• Community plays a crucial role in the process of intentional discomfort and personal growth. Community and authentic confession can be a powerful source of support and growth in times of discomfort.

• Men and Women of Discomfort focuses on wholeheartedness rather than perfection, setting it apart from other programs.

• The Valley of Discomfort can be a challenging place, but it is where growth and transformation happen.

• Running towards discomfort, like the buffalo running towards the storm, can lead to finding the 'good stuff' and developing resilience.

• Having the right perspective and purpose in suffering can help individuals navigate and make the most of difficult seasons.

• Choosing to embrace discomfort and seeing it as an opportunity to grow and become stronger can lead to a more fulfilling life.

• Shifting from 'I have to' to 'I get to' can change one's mindset and attitude towards discomfort.

• Relating to discomfort as building a cathedral can help individuals see the value and purpose in their struggles.

• Taking the next step and getting in touch with Men and Women of Discomfort can provide guidance and support for those seeking to navigate discomfort.

• There is life after ministry and opportunities for ministry in different seasons of life.

Chapters

00:00 - Introduction and Background

07:20 - Challenges in Vocational Ministry

13:08 - Transitioning and the Christian Community

17:25 - Moving Forward After Ministry

20:33 - Men and Women of Discomfort

26:38 - The Goal: Strong and Awake for Love's Sake

36:42 - The Importance of Community

44:38 - The Power of Community and Authentic Confession

45:31 - The Difference Between Men and Women of Discomfort and Other Programs

48:01 - The Valley of Discomfort and the Temptation to Return to Comfort

50:16 - The Story of the Buffalo and Running Towards the Storm

54:25 - The Importance of Perspective and Purpose in Suffering

57:02 - Choosing to Embrace Discomfort and Not Waste the Season

01:01:33 - Shifting from 'I Have to' to 'I Get to'

01:02:16 - Relating to Discomfort as Building a Cathedral

01:05:04 - Taking the Next Step and Getting in Touch

01:06:12 - Life After Ministry and Ministry After Ministry

Summary

As we wrap up an incredible first season of the "Life After Ministry" podcast, join us, Matt and Marilee Davis, in reflecting on the profound insights and heartwarming stories we've encountered. This journey hasn't just been about sharing stories - it's been a path of personal growth and unexpected joy for us too. Here are some pivotal takeaways that have resonated not just with our listeners, but deeply within our own lives:

• Embracing the Darkness in Transitions: One of the most powerful themes this season has been about leaning into the challenging emotions that accompany pastoral transitions. It's in acknowledging and embracing this darkness that many find transformation and growth.

• The Wilderness Season: We've talked about this being a necessary phase. It's in these moments of seeming solitude that reliance on God becomes paramount and where profound spiritual growth occurs.

• Surrender and Trust: The act of letting go and trusting in God's plan, though scary, is a crucial step in navigating these transitions.

• Paying it Forward: Our guests have shared how their experiences have equipped them to serve others in their new ministries, turning their challenges into opportunities for giving back.

• Breaking Isolation: Through sharing their stories, our guests have brought light to the often-isolated path that many pastors walk during transitions, offering hope and a sense of community.

• Endurance and Support: The journey through pastoral transition is not a sprint but a marathon, requiring endurance, patience, and a strong support system.

• Church's Role in Transition: We looked into the responsibility of churches to provide more than just spiritual guidance during these times but also companionship, direction, and practical help.

• Honoring Dignity in Transition: Exiting ministry roles can be filled with challenges, but there are compassionate ways to honor people's dignity throughout the process.

• Gratitude and Encouragement: Lastly, the importance of expressing gratitude and encouragement to pastors and church leaders cannot be overstated. It's crucial in building a supportive and understanding community.

We've learned so much and have been deeply moved by the stories of resilience and faith. Thank you for joining us on this path. As we look forward to Season Two, let's continue to support and uplift each other, remembering that every transition can lead to a beautiful new beginning.

You can support Pastors in transition by making a donation here.

For Tim Stevens, those moments have shaped four decades of leadership in the church - and given him a front-row seat to hundreds of leaders navigating their own endings and beginnings.

In this conversation, Tim shares candidly about untangling his identity from the church he helped build, why pastors often stay too long, and how to navigate the grief and uncertainty that come with leaving. 

From decades at Granger Community Church to crisis leadership at Willow Creek during COVID, Tim has lived through seasons that tested both his loyalty and his leadership instincts.

Now, through Leading Smart, he walks pastors and boards through governance challenges, succession planning, and leadership transitions. 

Tim offers practical wisdom for both leaders in the second chair and those tasked with guiding major shifts - always with the reminder that ministry endings can be done in ways that protect people, preserve purpose, and prepare for what’s next.

Key Takeaways

• The “push and pull” dynamic is present in every ministry transition.
• Identity can become dangerously intertwined with a role - separation is painful but necessary.
• Pastors often stay longer than they should due to loyalty, finances, or lack of vision for life after ministry.
• Succession planning must start years in advance to avoid crisis moments.
• Governance structures that worked for a smaller church may need major revision as the church grows.
• Churches rarely have systems in place to care for staff after terminations or transitions.
• Healthy endings require intentionality, outside support, and a willingness to let go.

Chapter Markers

• 00:00 – Pickleball, Notre Dame, and the start of the conversation
• 02:29 – Matt’s transition season and early connection with Tim
• 03:17 – Tim’s 40 years in ministry and five major transitions
• 06:55 – Leaving Granger: identity, co-dependence, and the year-long decision
• 13:06 – Lessons from Vanderbloemen: big vs. small church transitions
• 15:17 – Leading through crisis at Willow Creek during COVID
• 18:49 – The birth of Leading Smart and the work Tim does today
• 24:36 – The state of the American church and Gen Z trends
• 26:20 – Why pastors aren’t ready for succession - and how to prepare
• 28:33 – Outplacement and caring well for staff you have to let go
• 32:21 – How to connect with Tim and Leading Smart

If you’re in a season of transition - or see one on the horizon - visit MinistryTransitions.com to connect, give, or book a confidential call. And explore Tim’s work at LeadingSmart.com for coaching, consulting, and resources your church can put into action right now.

When pastors and nonprofit leaders transition into the marketplace, many feel like they’ve stepped out of calling and into something lesser. But that assumption may be the very thing limiting the Church’s influence.

In this episode, we talk with Chuck Proudfit about faith at work, succession challenges, leadership continuity, and why Christians must rethink the sacred-secular divide. 

This conversation reframes work as worship and challenges leaders to build legacy that outlives them.

• Work is not secular space. It is strategic deployment.
• The sacred-secular divide quietly undermines Christian leadership.
• Most succession failures begin long before the transition announcement.
• Boards must proactively ask leaders about their 10-year vision.
• Continuity requires infrastructure, not just inspiration.
• Community shapes faith at work more effectively than content alone.
• Leadership legacy must include both personal and organizational clarity.

00:00 – Introduction and Chuck’s faith journey 03:15 – Work as worship and the sacred-secular divide 06:44 – Faith in consulting and marketplace leadership 07:33 – Why church transitions struggle 10:13 – Organic ministry in the workplace 13:30 – The birth of At Work On Purpose 16:44 – Spiritual formation through work 19:05 – The Faith at Work Summit and future frontiers 20:43 – Continuity, succession, and leadership legacy 25:15 – Invitation to the Summit

If you are navigating a leadership transition, preparing for succession, or reimagining how faith integrates with your everyday work, take your next step today. Visit https://ministrytransitions.com to schedule a confidential conversation about your transition, explore how faith and work come together at https://atworkonpurpose.org/, and learn more about the global Faith at Work Summit at https://faithatworksummit2026.com/. Whether you are leaving vocational ministry, leading through change, or building what comes next, you do not have to do it alone.

In this season finale, Matt Davis pauses to look back on the lessons of Season Four. 

From transformational suffering to leadership in crisis, from the wilderness of interruption to the challenge of succession planning, these conversations have pointed us toward what truly sustains ministry.

More than just a recap, this is an invitation. An invitation to reflect on what God may be stirring in your own life and to consider how you might come alongside leaders who are navigating the hardest moments of ministry.

• Every testimony is more than a story - it’s a prayer for God to do it again.
• Suffering, when surrendered, can become transformational.
• Presence matters more than polish in crisis leadership.
• Succession is both organizational and personal - it requires planning on both levels.
• The Church’s culture is an operating system, not an event.
• Leaders in transition need more than strategy - they need support.
• You can be part of multiplying hope for leaders facing transition.

• 00:00 – Introduction: Season 4 Wrap-Up
• 01:00 – Why Testimonies Are Prayers for God to Do It Again
• 03:15 – Lessons from Guests: Suffering, Succession, Wilderness, and Culture
• 09:00 – Succession as Both Organizational and Personal
• 12:00 – Supporting Leaders in Transition: An Appeal
• 15:00 – Thank You and Looking Ahead to Season 5

Ministry Transitions stands in the gap for pastors and ministry leaders who’ve been let go, burned out, or are simply facing their next step - and they need your help.

Visit ministrytransitions.com to:

• Access resources
• Sponsor a leader in crisis
• Or schedule a conversation to take stock of your next step

You’re not giving to a program - you’re giving to a person with a calling. Let’s walk with leaders through their lowest valleys and help them find hope again.

In this episode, Matt sits down with the founder of xPastor and longtime executive pastor, David Fletcher, to talk about the messy, complicated, and deeply human work of leadership transitions in the church.

They unpack the real cost of bad transitions - not just in dollars, but in broken trust. 

Dave shares stories from his 30+ years in ministry, including firing people he loved, navigating church politics without losing his soul, and why a generous severance might be the best culture-shaping tool a church has. 

You'll also hear how he and his wife built a thriving marriage in the middle of ministry chaos, and why their daily Starbucks date is sacred.

It's honest. It's wise. It’s surprisingly funny. And it’s a masterclass for anyone leading people, especially in the church.

• The Business Brain + Pastor’s Heart: Every ministry decision is both relational and organizational. You need both instincts.
• Why Fit Matters More Than Failure: Most terminations aren’t about incompetence - they’re about misalignment.
• The $300,000 Mistake: Dave breaks down the actual financial cost of a poor staff transition.
• Tell the Truth Without Telling Everything: How to communicate firings to staff and congregation without gossip or spin.
• Marriage and Ministry: Why laughing, insider jokes, and iced tea matter more than most leadership books.
• Give It Away: Why Dave gives away nearly everything on XPastor.org - and what it’s doing for churches worldwide.

• 00:00 – Intro & How Greek (Yes, Greek) Led Dave into Ministry
• 02:30 – The Wild Ride from Kids Ministry to XP
• 04:45 – Why the Executive Pastor Role Is All-In
• 06:30 – Letting People Go with Dignity
• 08:15 – Calculating the Real Cost of Bad Transitions
• 12:45 – How to Communicate a Termination (Without Creating a Firestorm)
• 15:30 – What’s Changed in the Church (Spoiler: Everything)
• 18:00 – Should Every Pastor Be Bivocational Now?
• 22:00 – Health, Marriage, and the Art of Insider Jokes
• 26:00 – Behind the Madness of the XPastor Seminar
• 28:45 – Fair Salaries and Why They Matter
• 32:00 – The Goal: Fully Enjoy God

If you’re navigating a leadership transition or just want to do ministry with more clarity, courage, and peace - check out the free resources at ministrytransitions.com. And for coaching, salary tools, or to attend the next XPastor Seminar, visit xpastor.org. It’s the guide you wish you had years ago.

Learn more about the great work David Robinson is doing at Coaching 4 Marketplace by going to: https://coachdaverobinson.com/

What if you dedicated decades of your life to ministry only to discover the role you've been striving to fulfill doesn't align with your true calling?

In this episode of Life After Ministry, Matt sits down with David Robinson, a seasoned pastor who faced the painful realization that his gifting was not what people had expected of him.

Together, they tackle the disappointment of unfulfilled expectations in ministry, the challenges pastors face when their role doesn’t fit their calling, and the key to finding clarity and purpose in leadership.

How can churches avoid burnout, embrace better hiring processes, and ensure that their pastors are operating within their true gifts?

This episode dives deep into what it takes to build effective ministry teams and how to lead a church while avoiding common pitfalls.

1. Clarity Prevents Confrontation: Many conflicts arise from unclear expectations in leadership roles; upfront clarity in job descriptions and performance agreements is essential.
2. Gifting vs. Role Expectations: Churches often expect pastors to fulfill multiple roles, but each leader needs to operate within their God-given spiritual gift.
3. The Importance of Building a Team: An apostolic leader must focus on building a balanced team of other gifts - shepherds, teachers, evangelists, and prophets - instead of trying to do it all themselves.
4. Relational Equity Matters: The strength of a church’s leadership is often determined by the relationships built outside formal meetings - trust grows from investing in personal connections.
5. Burnout Doesn't Come From Chasing Jesus: Burnout in ministry occurs when leaders chase after people or tasks outside of their gifts, not from pursuing their true calling.

1. "Confrontation is the flip side of clarity. If you're not clear upfront, confrontation is inevitable."
2. "God told me, 'I never called you to be a pastor.' It wasn't the shepherding gift He gave me, but another that was needed in the places He sent me."
3. "Burnout doesn’t come from chasing Jesus; it comes from chasing people and tasks that don't align with your gift."

• [00:00] Introduction – Matt and Marilee introduce David Robinson and the theme of unfulfilled expectations in ministry.
• [00:41] Unfulfilled Expectations in Leadership – David explains how lack of clarity in roles leads to disappointment and confrontation.
• [02:00] Five Key Areas of Clarity in Hiring – Spiritual gifting, temperament, clear job description, and performance agreements are necessary for successful leadership.
• [04:32] Frustration in Ministry – David shares his 40-year experience in ministry and the internal struggle of being called a "pastor" without having a shepherding gift.
• [07:50] The Role of Apostolic Leadership – A discussion on the difference between an apostolic gifting and the expectations placed on pastors.
• [12:44] Elders’ Role in Supporting Leadership – How elders hold pastors accountable and build trust through relational equity.
• [15:12] Tension Between Ministry and Corporate Approaches – Addressing the disconnect between ministry-focused staff and marketplace-minded elders.
• [18:08] Managing Transitions and Letting Go – How to approach pastoral transitions with grace and maintain emotional maturity during difficult conversations.
• [19:49] Vision vs. Management in Ministry – The importance of maintaining a compelling vision to prevent ministry from devolving into mere management.
• [21:59] Addressing Burnout in Ministry – How burnout happens when leaders pursue tasks outside their gifting and how to create balance.
• [26:27] Life After Ministry – David discusses the possibility of life after vocational ministry and how to embrace a new calling outside the church.

Learn more about our work at Pastoral Transitions by going to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/

Learn more about the great work David Robinson is doing at Coaching 4 Marketplace by going to: https://coachdaverobinson.com/

Key Takeaways

• Honest work audits can reveal misaligned roles without shaming your calling.
• A two-year discernment window can hold fear, finances, and family well.
• Build a simple runway: clear income target and small savings cushion.
• Generosity in transition can reframe pain and deepen humility.
• You can keep a pastoral identity while changing employers.
• Finishing well rests on margin, influence, and intentional living.
• Purpose is discovered over time. Let the desert do its work.

Chapter Markers

00:00 Welcome and background 02:20 When the job isn’t the joy anymore 04:55 Two-year wrestle and first paid coaching moment 08:24 Elders, early exit, unexpected generosity 10:14 Building a practical runway and budget targets 12:16 Why “Lead Self, Lead Others” 16:02 Defining finishing well in the fourth quarter 18:18 Retiring the fee, keeping the call at 68 20:07 Purpose unfolds slowly, not suddenly 24:42 Margin, influence, and hyper-intentional life 27:30 Why pastors make great coaches 30:01 CEOs and pastors face the same pressures 31:38 Wisdom to a next-gen pastor son 34:03 Where to find Nathan’s work

Before you make the next move, make the wise one. Visit ministrytransitions.com to schedule a confidential call, get transition tools for your board or staff, or give to help another leader walk through theirs with dignity.

To learn more about how pastors can become powerful leadership coaches, visit leadselfleadothers.com or realcoachingsuccess.com. You’ll find tools to help you clarify calling, build a coaching rhythm, and multiply your impact beyond the church walls.

Laura Howe, founder of Hope Made Strong, knows firsthand the toll of compassion fatigue. From her own season of burnout came a global movement equipping churches to address mental health with wisdom and grace.

In this conversation, Laura shares her personal journey from exhaustion to renewed purpose. She reminds us that burnout is not a moral failure, but a workplace hazard for anyone serving in caregiving roles. 

With honesty and clarity, she explains what resilience truly looks like, how to know when you’ve moved from “yellow” into “red,” and why churches must begin addressing mental health as part of whole-life discipleship.

For leaders in transition, this episode offers a lifeline. You’ll hear not only practical wisdom but also the hope that God redeems what feels wasted. 

Whether you’re a pastor, a board member, or someone carrying unseen weight, Laura’s insights offer courage to pause, refuel, and continue faithfully.

• Burnout and compassion fatigue are hazards of caregiving, not signs of weakness or sin.
• Resilience is less about powering through and more about bouncing back.
• Ministry leaders must learn to recognize their “zone” on the green-yellow-orange-red scale.
• Sustainable care in churches means creating belonging, purpose, and hope - not acting as clinics.
• The Church has a unique capacity to support mental health across every stage of life.
• Global interest in integrating faith and mental health is rising rapidly.
• Hope Made Strong and the Church Mental Health Summit provide free, practical resources.

• 00:00 – Introduction to Laura Howe and Hope Made Strong
• 01:10 – Laura’s Burnout Story and Birth of Hope Made Strong
• 03:13 – Understanding Compassion Fatigue and Resilience
• 06:12 – How Do You Know It’s Time for a Change?
• 09:17 – From Red Zone to Hope Made Strong
• 12:15 – Sustainability and the Church’s Responsibility
• 16:04 – Why the Church Must Embrace Mental Health
• 19:50 – Launching the Church Mental Health Summit
• 23:25 – Personal Reflection and Final Encouragement

If this episode stirred something in you, take a next step: visit MinistryTransitions.com to book a confidential call about an upcoming transition, termination, or succession - or give to help another leader get timely support. Then head to HopeMadeStrong.org to equip your team for sustainable care by registering for the Church Mental Health Summit and accessing practical tools for your church.

Summary

Dr. Dee Dee Mayer discusses the importance of board governance within the church and the need for training and support for governing boards. She shares her research on the role of elder boards in supporting wellness in pastoral leadership and the challenges they face. Dr. Mayer emphasizes the importance of selecting board members based on spiritual maturity and creating a culture of accountability and healthy conflict resolution. She provides nine essential conversations for governing boards to have, including defining culture, guiding principles for recruitment, and managing difficult leaders. Dr. Mayer highlights the need for proactive leadership to prevent church hurt and create a space for healing.

Takeaways

• Board governance is crucial for supporting wellness in pastoral leadership and preventing leadership failure within the church.
• Elder boards often lack training and preparation, leading to a disconnect between the board and the pastors they serve.
• Selecting board members based on spiritual maturity and wisdom is essential for effective governance.
• Creating a culture of accountability, healthy conflict resolution, and proactive leadership is necessary for preventing church hurt and promoting healing.

Chapters

00:00 - Introduction and Background 01:00 - Heartbreak over Leadership Failure 02:23 - The Role of Governing Boards 03:17 - Lack of Training for Elder Boards 04:35 - The Need for a System 06:16 - Selecting Board Members Based on Spiritual Maturity 07:11 - Balancing Success and Spiritual Qualifications 08:21 - Creating Healthy Ways to Navigate Conflict 10:19 - Essential Conversations for Governing Boards 13:47 - Structuring Roles and Responsibilities 15:16 - Maintaining Healthy Leadership 16:44 - Taking Care of Pastors and Their Families 17:26 - Creating Systems of Accountability 18:16 - Navigating Concerns and Allegations 19:06 - Managing Difficult Leaders 21:39 - Reactivity vs Proactivity in Elder Boards 23:08 - The Responsibility of Holding the Church 26:43 - Preventing Church Hurt 28:35 - Focusing on the Culture and System

In this conversation, Marine veteran and Forte co-founder Vineet Rajan reframes care for leaders as mental fitness - a proactive, daily practice that keeps pastors and nonprofit teams clear-headed, resilient, and ready.

We contrast mental fitness with therapy, name the everyday pressures leaders face, and offer accessible rhythms that fit real life. 

You’ll hear why churches are becoming early adopters, how to reduce noise so you can notice what God is saying, and why outcomes - not just usage - should drive board decisions.

If you lead people, steward budgets, or carry a call that feels heavier than it used to, this episode gives you language, guardrails, and next steps to strengthen your team without adding shame or hype.

Key Takeaways

• Mental fitness is proactive training; therapy is reactive care for acute needs. Both matter.
• Leaders fight three constants: entropy, the enemy, and evil - training helps us endure them.
• Preventative care beats crisis management; reduce interior noise to increase signal.
• Ministries love the model because it separates staff care from supervisory entanglements.
• Outcomes matter: increased productivity and well-being translate to real ROI.
• Accessibility drives adoption: mobile scheduling, short sessions, and confidentiality.

Chapter Markers

• 00:00 Welcome and setup
• 01:00 Vineet’s backstory: immigrant kid to Marine officer
• 04:00 What is Forte and who they serve
• 05:45 Mental fitness vs mental health - clear differences
• 09:20 Preventative maintenance and the “office vent” analogy
• 11:45 The three E’s: entropy, enemy, evil
• 15:00 Why churches became early adopters
• 19:30 EAPs, engagement, and outcomes that matter
• 22:05 The secret sauce: accessibility and aspiration
• 25:40 From interrogation training to loving people well
• 29:00 Vision: organizations solving big problems, people known and whole
• 31:15 Next steps for leaders and teams
• 33:30 Closing and partnership

When leaders hit quiet fatigue, care starts with community. Ministry Transitions walks with pastors and ministry leaders through seasons of loss, burnout, and change - helping them rediscover clarity and calling. Visit ministrytransitions.com.

For mental fitness solutions, Forte serves both sides of the mission field. Explore getforte.com/faith for Christian organizations, businesses, and nonprofits, or getforte.com for teams in the broader marketplace looking to build resilience and clarity.

That decision took him from church staff to radio hosting, from the pulpit to row three, and eventually back into ministry with a new clarity. 

Along the way, he discovered how to face failure without fear, how to detach identity from role, and why bi-vocational rhythms might be the healthiest way forward for pastors.

If you’re navigating transition - or helping someone who is - this conversation offers language and hope for what comes next.

Key Takeaways 

• Identity is received in Christ, not earned by a role
• Failure roars like a lion but shrinks when faced
• Grace isn’t tidy - it meets you in real time
• Bi-vocational ministry mirrors the lives of congregants
• Pastoral skills translate beyond the pulpit
• Churches can pilot one day of outside work for healthier staff
• The wilderness is where God grows clarity and love

Chapter Markers

• 00:00 Welcome and setup
• 05:15 From Phoenix growth to Australian valley
• 08:30 Radio hosting and a father’s death
• 10:56 Untangling identity from role
• 15:45 A year of silence and being fed
• 21:05 What “pastor” really means
• 24:50 Transferable skills pastors overlook
• 29:20 Why bi-vocational makes sense
• 40:10 Real-time grace at the speed of Jesus
• 45:10 Closing

If you’re a pastor or ministry leader facing transition - or walking with someone who is - you don’t have to do it alone. Visit ministrytransitions.com to explore coaching, confidential conversations, and resources designed to help you protect people, preserve purpose, and plan what’s next with wisdom and grace.

To connect with Duncan Robinson, visit DuncanRobinson.net for links to his projects, speaking, and his book Full Phoenix Rising: Real-Time Grace at the Speed of Jesus - a raw and redemptive look at failure, faith, and finding your way back when everything falls apart. You can also find Full Phoenix Rising on Amazon, Target, Walmart, and other major retailers.

If this conversation encouraged you, share the episode with a friend who might need to hear that stepping out of ministry doesn’t mean stepping out of God’s calling - it might just mean walking it out differently.

And one of the most misunderstood.

After decades working with leading Christian organizations, Steve Woodworth has watched leadership transitions unfold from behind the scenes. 

Some created momentum and clarity. Others quietly eroded trust, fractured relationships, and stalled mission.

What makes the difference?

In this episode, Steve shares the patterns he’s seen across hundreds of organizations, why internal succession is often more effective, and how boards and leaders can work together to create a “no drama” transition.

This conversation is both practical and deeply human, addressing not just strategy but identity, trust, and the emotional reality leaders face as they step out of their roles.

• The healthiest successions begin years before the actual transition • Internal candidates have a significantly higher success rate than external hires • Culture fit is one of the biggest predictors of success or failure • Boards often underestimate their need for outside help • Mistreating outgoing leaders can damage donor trust and organizational stability • Leaders must plan not just what they are leaving, but what they are going toward • Humility and collaboration are essential for a “no drama” succession

00:00 — Introduction to Steve Woodworth 01:36 — Why he wrote Lost in Transition 05:00 — Patterns in healthy vs unhealthy successions 07:15 — Why culture fit matters so much 09:23 — Internal vs external successors 12:43 — What happens when you don’t prepare 16:03 — The emotional weight of stepping down 17:58 — Mistreating outgoing leaders 20:56 — What leaders need to hear before retiring 23:10 — Transitioning into what’s next 26:27 — The challenge of founder succession 31:07 — Gone too soon vs stayed too long 35:12 — The critical role of boards 39:56 — What’s changing in succession today

If you’re navigating a leadership transition or want to prepare your organization before challenges arise, visit https://ministrytransitions.com to learn how Ministry Transitions helps leaders and boards plan wisely and finish strong. 

You can also connect with Steve Woodworth’s insights through his book Lost in Transition and his work at https://masterworks.agency or on LinkedIn, where he shares ongoing wisdom for leaders facing succession decisions. These resources exist to help you steward both the ending and the next beginning with clarity and care.

After nearly two decades at Goldman Sachs, Alicia was managing a massive trading floor and rubbing shoulders with IPO titans. She loved the fast pace. She was good at it. 

And then God pulled the plug. A missed promotion became a divine pivot - and what followed was not a sabbatical, but a startup.

In this episode, we dive deep into Alicia’s unlikely journey from investment banking to launching Faithly, a digital ecosystem for ministry leaders - built not to replace community, but to amplify it. 

She opens up about her hustle, her heartbreak, and her unshakeable sense of calling.

If you’ve ever wrestled with identity in a transition, if you’ve ever been tempted to white-knuckle your way to the next thing, or if you’re still unsure what ministry looks like outside the walls of the church - this conversation will hit home.

Alicia’s story isn’t just about leaving a job. It’s about finding your voice when your title disappears.

• God uses closed doors as clear signs to redirect us into new assignments.
• Your calling may not change - but your context can. You might already be “in ministry” and not even know it.
• Faithly is filling a gap for pastors and ministry leaders left out of traditional professional networks like LinkedIn.
• Slow growth is still real growth. There’s value in patient building and prioritizing soul care over speed.
• Transitions can tempt us to over-identify with productivity, but our identity is not in what we do - it’s in whose we are.

• 00:00 – From Wall Street to the ministry: Alicia’s surprising career shift
• 03:30 – The promotion that didn’t come - and what God did instead
• 06:45 – The vision behind Faithly: Why ministry leaders need their own platform
• 09:50 – Why LinkedIn doesn’t work for ministry - and what makes Faithly different
• 14:40 – Bringing Wall Street hustle into the startup world
• 17:00 – Juggling a tech startup and raising three kids
• 21:00 – Redefining identity after leaving a high-powered career
• 24:45 – Building slowly: Why Faithly is growing at the speed of trust
• 30:00 – What’s next for Faithly and how ministry leaders can get involved

If you’re a ministry leader in transition, don’t navigate it alone. Visit ministrytransitions.com for guidance, coaching, and care to help you land well.

And if you're ready to connect with others who get it - people who are walking the same road - join the growing network at faithly.co. It’s not just a platform. It’s your new ministry ecosystem.

Summary

This conversation explores the experiences of Brian James and Michelle McMahon as they transitioned out of vocational ministry and created safe spaces for pastors and church leaders. They discuss the challenges of being in ministry, the importance of vulnerability and authenticity, and the need for safe and supportive communities.

The conversation also touches on the role of female pastors and the redefinition of church. Overall, the discussion highlights the importance of cultivating trust and creating spaces where pastors can be brave and find healing.

They discuss the importance of connection and how Church Well Co helps pastors and ministers overcome isolation and the concept of bravery and how it can foster safety and support within communities.

Takeaways

• Transitions out of vocational ministry can be challenging and painful, but they can also lead to new opportunities for growth and healing.

• Creating safe spaces for pastors and church leaders is crucial for their well-being and the health of the church community.

• Vulnerability and authenticity are essential in building trust and deepening relationships.

• The role of female pastors in the church is important and should be valued and supported.

• Church Well Co offers virtual groups and communities for pastors and ministers to overcome isolation.

• Isolation is not limited to geographical boundaries, and Church Well Co also supports missionaries around the world.

• Engaging bravely with others can create a sense of safety and trust.

• Taking small steps of bravery can lead to meaningful connections and support.

Chapters

00:00 - Introduction and Background

01:32 - Entering Ministry

03:07 - Transitions and Changes

04:17 - Personal Transitions Out of Ministry

07:03 - Creating Safe Spaces

10:49 - The Role of Female Pastors

12:19 - Redefining Church

14:27 - Creating Safe Spaces in the Church

20:13 - Life After Vocational Ministry

26:58 - Finding Purpose and Relevance

31:19 - Creating Safe Spaces for Pastors

36:20 - Cultivating Safety and Trust

42:17 - Hope for Those Longing for Authentic Relationships

45:57 - Connecting with Church Well Co

46:16 - Virtual Groups and Isolation

47:40 - Engaging Bravely

He was a pastor. A leader. A man who thought he had it under control - until he didn’t. Until Joanna asked him the one question he had spent years avoiding.

In that moment, everything unraveled. Their marriage. Their ministry. The future they had planned.

What do you do when the thing you're struggling with is the very thing you’re called to help others with? When the shame is suffocating, and the voices in your head tell you you're disqualified?

In this episode, Matthew and Joanna Raabsmith open up about betrayal, confession, and the long road to healing. They reveal how their journey nearly cost them everything - and how, through the wreckage, they found a new calling.

If you’re a pastor, a ministry leader, or just someone feeling like you've lost your way, this episode is for you.

• Secrets don’t stay buried. What you hide will always rise to the surface - usually when you least expect it.
• Your struggle doesn’t disqualify you. But ignoring it might.
• Healing is possible - but only if you face the truth. Matthew’s addiction nearly destroyed his marriage, but confession opened the door to redemption.
• Ministry should not cost you your soul. Leaders are burning out, hiding struggles, and suffering in silence. It’s time for a better way.

[00:10] - Introducing Matthew & Joanna Raabsmith [01:15] - Falling in Love & Stepping into Ministry [02:08] - The Secret That Changed Everything [07:18] - The Moment of Truth: When Joanna Asked the Hard Question [09:15] - Can You Still Be in Ministry After Failing? [14:51] - Pastors in Crisis: Why Leaders Feel Stuck [18:30] - The Weight of Hidden Struggles & The Road to Freedom [21:27] - Creating a Culture Where Leaders Can Heal [26:08] - What Churches Get Wrong About Redemption [29:08] - Finding New Purpose After Ministry

If you or someone you know is struggling in ministry, you are not alone. There is a way forward. There is life after ministry.

Get resources and connect with Matthew & Joanna at https://raabsmithteam.com/free

Connect with us at https://pastoraltransitions.com/

Share this episode. Someone needs to hear it.

Learn more about the great work Kathey Batey is doing at Divorce Support Anonymous by going to: https://divorcesupportanonymous.com/

Episode Summary

Imagine walking into your church with a heart heavy from a broken marriage, unsure how your faith community will respond. The weight of shame, guilt, and fear can feel unbearable.

This episode of Life After Ministry dives into the often unspoken struggles of divorce, especially for those in ministry.

Divorce doesn't just impact a marriage, it shakes personal faith, family, and even one’s calling.

Matt and Marilee Davis sit down with Kathy Batey, a divorce support expert, to explore the stigma of divorce in Christian circles, the unique pain pastors face when marriages fall apart, and how the church can better respond with love and grace instead of judgment.

This episode sheds light on the real experiences of people struggling with the collapse of their marriage and how to heal and hope again.

1. The Church’s Response to Divorce: Instead of casting stones, churches need to approach divorce with compassion, understanding that healing requires support, not judgment.
2. The Unique Pressure on Pastors: Pastors face additional layers of shame and complexity when dealing with divorce because of their public role in the faith community.
3. God Hates Violence, Not Just Divorce: The often-quoted scripture about God hating divorce is often misapplied, as the heart of the issue is God's disdain for violence and broken relationships, not merely the legal separation.
4. Hope After Divorce: Even after the pain of divorce, there is life, restoration, and potential for new purpose if individuals are intentional about healing.
5. The Importance of Support Systems: Support groups, whether faith-based or community-oriented, are critical for healing and processing the trauma of divorce.

1. "Divorce causes damage, but God cares more about the individual than the institution of marriage."
2. "You have a broken soul in front of you. How you treat this broken soul matters."
3. "God has not divorced you. He still has a beautiful plan for your life."

• [00:00] Introduction – Matt and Marilee introduce the topic of divorce in ministry.
• [01:05] Kathy Batey’s Journey – Kathy shares her personal experience with divorce and how it led her to support others.
• [02:56] The Stigma of Divorce in the Church – Exploring the shame and fear Christians feel around divorce.
• [05:01] Pastors and Divorce – The additional challenges pastors face when their marriages break down.
• [06:36] Misinterpretations of Malachi 2:16 – Kathy explains how the Bible's verse about God hating divorce is often misused.
• [10:28] Helping Pastors Struggling in Their Marriage – Kathy offers advice for ministry leaders facing marital challenges.
• [14:50] Church Leaders’ Role in Supporting Divorcing Pastors – Practical steps church boards can take to support pastors going through divorce.
• [18:35] Redemption After Divorce – A story of how one pastor was more impactful post-divorce.
• [20:37] Life After Divorce – The importance of healing and finding hope after a marriage ends.
• [25:50] Final Thoughts – Kathy encourages individuals going through divorce, reminding them of God's plan for their lives.

Learn more about our work at Pastoral Transitions by going to: https://pastoraltransitions.com/

Learn more about the great work Kathey Batey is doing at Divorce Support Anonymous by going to: https://divorcesupportanonymous.com/

Summary

In this episode of the "Life After Ministry" podcast, Dillon Fawcett candidly shares his unique journey, transitioning from pastoral ministry and his entry point into the world of mental health counseling. With honesty and vulnerability, Dillon opens up about the ups and downs he experienced, the transitions that challenged him, and the invaluable lessons he's learned. His story is a powerful testament to the truth that life doesn't end after ministry – in fact, it can take on new, meaningful forms. Dillon's insights remind us that our pain and struggles are not in vain - they're instruments used by God to shape and refine us.

Takeaways

• Post-Ministry Life: Transitioning out of ministry is challenging, yet it opens the door to new beginnings and avenues of purpose.

• Transformative Pain: Our struggles and pain can be the very experiences that catalyze personal growth and transformation.

• God's Refinement: God is intimately involved in our lives, using our challenges to refine our hearts and align us with His purpose.

• Ministry in Many Forms: Ministry isn't confined to the pulpit – avenues like counseling can be just as impactful in serving and guiding others.

• Joy and Trust in God: Finding joy and purpose in life's next chapter hinges on gratitude and a deep trust in God's overarching plan.

Chapters

00:00 - Introduction and Dillon's Background 03:01 - Exploring Woodworking and Business Ventures 07:24 - Reflections on Pastoral Ministry 10:46 - The Emotional Landscape of Transitioning Out of Ministry 15:13 - Discovering Life and Purpose After Ministry 19:56 - Wilderness Lessons: Growth Amidst Challenges 22:44 - Supporting Others Facing Similar Transitions 26:06 - Unearthing Joy and Purpose in New Paths 29:20 - Continuing the Ministry Journey through Counseling 30:35 - Upcoming Projects and Podcast Plans 31:08 - Conclusion: Embracing the Journey Ahead

Summary

In this episode of the Life After Ministry podcast, titled "Ministry In The Military," we explore a path that many pastors might not have considered: becoming a military chaplain. Our guest, Chaplain Jordan Huggins, shares his firsthand experience serving in both the US Air Force and Space Force. For pastors wrestling with "what's next?" Jordan's journey offers a compelling glimpse into a role where ministry skills are not just useful but vital.

Serving as a military chaplain brings unique challenges but also profound opportunities to support service members and their families through spiritual guidance and pastoral care. Jordan talks about what it takes to step into this role, the kind of impact you can expect to have, and why it's been fulfilling for him.

If you're at a crossroads in your ministry career, curious about military chaplaincy, or simply seeking a new avenue where your pastoral skills can make a difference, this conversation is for you. It's a straightforward look at an option that could be your next calling—a chance to serve those who serve.

Chaplain Jordan Huggins shares his journey from military to ministry and back to the military as a chaplain. He discusses the challenges and rewards of ministering to airmen and guardians, providing counseling and support in various situations. Chaplain Huggins also explains the process of becoming a military chaplain and offers guidance for those interested in pursuing this path. He emphasizes the importance of ministry beyond the walls of the church and the privilege of being with people on their worst days.

Takeaways

• Transitioning from military to ministry and back to the military as a chaplain is a unique and fulfilling path.

• Chaplains play a crucial role in providing counseling and support to military personnel, addressing their spiritual and emotional needs.

• Becoming a military chaplain requires an MDiv degree or a master's degree in theology, religious studies, and endorsement from a denomination or faith group.

• The process of joining as a chaplain takes about four to six months and involves a thorough evaluation of qualifications and physical fitness.

• Ministry after ministry extends beyond the walls of the church and involves being present with people in their most challenging moments.

Chapters

00:00 - Introduction and Background

01:28 - Transition from Military to Ministry

03:11 - Existential Crisis and Return to Faith

04:10 - Ministry Life and Experience

05:27 - Return to Military as a Chaplain

07:18 - Needs of Airmen and Guardians

08:43 - Counseling and Support for Military Personnel

10:04 - Becoming a Military Chaplain

13:10 - Process of Joining as a Chaplain

14:22 - Next Steps for Those Interested

15:17 - Ministry After Ministry

17:10 - Closing Remarks

In this episode, Matt sits down with Josh Taylor, former executive pastor turned chief marketing officer, who opens up about what it’s really like to step off the platform and into the unknown. 

From twelve years of trusted leadership in a growing church to a surprising turn through a university layoff and a marketing agency for car washes, Josh’s story is full of quiet pivots, faithful risk-taking, and unexpected grace.

But this isn’t just about changing careers. It’s about the slow death of pride, learning to hear God's voice outside the church walls, and becoming the kind of husband, father, and friend you were always meant to be.

If you’ve ever wondered what ministry looks like when your title disappears - or felt a holy nudge toward “something more” - this conversation will meet you right where you are.

• Why identity is one of the hardest things to untangle when leaving ministry
• How Josh navigated an unexpected layoff - and why it turned into one of the best days of his life
• What it looks like to still live out ministry in a secular workplace
• How to listen well, talk honestly with your spouse, and step into an unknown future with trust
• The surprising truth about being a present dad (and why the phone isn’t the only distraction)

00:00 – Josh's journey into ministry and long tenure as executive pastor 04:30 – Lessons from staffing, transitions, and team dynamics 07:25 – When boredom, burnout, and frustration signal it’s time to go 12:00 – Why Josh and his wife stepped away from their home church after resigning 17:00 – A safe landing at a university… and an unexpected layoff 19:30 – The power of a spouse’s words during a pivotal moment 22:50 – From pastor to car wash CMO: how to make sense of an unexpected calling 28:00 – How Josh stays present as a father and what he wants his son to remember 31:00 – Advice for leaders who feel called to step out but don’t know where to start

If you’re wrestling with what’s next after ministry, you don’t have to figure it out alone. Visit MinistryTransitions.com to find practical support and a team who’s walked this road too.

And be sure to follow Josh Taylor on Instagram at @joshtaylor.guide for thoughtful reflections on leadership, fatherhood, and life after ministry.

In this episode, Brad Gray and Brad Nelson share their unfiltered stories of leaving pastoral ministry, wrestling through uncertainty, and discovering the faithful presence of God in seasons where nothing made sense. 

Their journeys reveal how transitions can expose hidden wounds, force honest discernment, and ultimately reshape our understanding of calling.

From uprooting a thriving teaching pastor role with no job on the other side, to the quiet unraveling that nearly cost a marriage, both men walk through the tension, grief, and surprising grace that comes when God invites you into a future you can’t yet see. 

And at the center of their healing is a rediscovery of the Lord’s Prayer - not as a childhood memory, but as a daily blueprint for partnering with God.

This conversation is hope for the discouraged, a mirror for the exhausted, and a companion for anyone wondering whether there is life after ministry. There is. And it might be more expansive than you expect.

• How God can initiate a transition long before you understand it.
• Why community and spiritual friends are essential during vocational upheaval.
• What happens when the pain of staying becomes greater than the fear of leaving.
• How unaddressed wounds from ministry begin to surface during transitions.
• Why the Lord’s Prayer is a daily blueprint for grounding, clarity, and direction.
• The difference between assignment and calling in a leader’s life.
• How God works slowly, quietly, and faithfully in seasons that feel stalled.

00:00 – Introductions and the two Brads 01:10 – Brad Gray’s unexpected call away from a thriving church 03:45 – Moving to Nashville without a plan 07:00 – Brad Nelson’s painful exit from church planting 09:35 – How ministries unravel marriages and identities 12:30 – Discernment, tension, and the pivot point 14:30 – When pain forces change 20:00 – The Lord’s Prayer as a blueprint for life 25:43 – Kingdom, calling, and partnering with God 29:09 – The making of the film and book 33:06 – How churches can use the new resources 38:30 – What they would say to their former selves 42:49 – Is there life after ministry? 43:40 – Final thoughts and blessing

Your story is not over. In fact, this may be the first time in years that God finally has the space to show you who you are beyond what you do.

If you’re navigating a transition, facing a forced resignation, preparing for succession, or simply unraveling quietly under the weight of ministry, reach out. You don’t have to make these decisions alone.

Visit https://ministrytransitions.com to schedule a confidential conversation or to give toward a leader who is carrying more than they can name.

And if you want to explore the formative power of the Lord’s Prayer as a companion in this season, engage the resources at https://thelordsprayer.com. They offer a film, a forthcoming episodic series, and a new book designed to walk with you as God leads you into what’s next.

There is life after ministry. And God is already in the future preparing it for you.

In this episode of Life After Ministry, ECFA’s Jake Lapp explains why accountability matters not just for auditors and boards but for pastors, leaders, and anyone entrusted with Kingdom resources. 

He shares how ECFA’s standards were designed to serve ministries, not stifle them, and how transparency is one of the clearest ways leaders reflect Christ’s call to integrity.

If you’ve ever wondered whether accountability hinders or helps ministry, Jake’s perspective reframes the conversation. This episode offers a framework for leaders who want to guard the mission, protect their people, and leave behind a legacy of trust.

• Accountability is not bureaucracy - it’s discipleship.
• Transparency builds trust faster than vision statements.
• Financial integrity protects both leaders and the people they serve.
• ECFA standards are guardrails, not red tape.
• Trust is earned in drops but lost in buckets.
• Healthy structures create freedom, not restriction.
• Integrity in hidden details sustains visible ministry.

• 00:00 – Introduction to ECFA and Jake Lapp
• 02:05 – Why Accountability Matters in Ministry
• 05:20 – The Role of ECFA Standards
• 09:45 – How Transparency Builds Trust
• 13:10 – Common Pitfalls Leaders Face
• 17:25 – Trust, Integrity, and Long-Term Sustainability
• 21:40 – Encouragement for Leaders in Transition

Strengthen the foundation you cannot see. Visit ECFA.org to review the Seven Standards, explore practical tools, and begin a clear pathway toward accreditation. Build transparency that protects people, guards the mission, and reflects Christ’s call to integrity.

If a transition is on the horizon, do not carry it alone. Go to MinistryTransitions.com to book a confidential call and build an integrity-first plan that safeguards your people and purpose. If you’re able, give to make this support possible for another leader.

In this episode, pastor’s wife Kristen Joy Humiston tells the story of being shut out of the room, hearing “you’re done here,” and driving home past the houses of those who voted yes.

Matt and Marilee name what many spouses carry in silence: rejection before termination, the isolation that follows, and how trauma forms when you have no voice, no choice, and no people. 

They also get practical. What to do on day one. How to breathe, pack, and protect your children. How boards can reduce harm and how churches can care for the whole family, not just the titleholder.

There is life after ministry. It may look different than you imagined. Yet dignity, honest community, and thoughtful planning can close a wound and leave a healed scar. 

This conversation offers language, tools, and hope for spouses, leaders, and boards who want to do hard things better.

Key Takeaways

• Forced termination becomes traumatic when people lose voice, choice, and community.
• Boards can reduce harm through clear policy, generous severance, and family-wide care.
• Day one priorities: safety, breathing space, housing plan, immediate financial triage.
• Spouses often sense red flags early; their intuition should be invited and honored.
• Community mitigates trauma; isolation cements it. Build a small circle fast.
• Identity untangling takes time for both pastor and spouse; purpose is bigger than a role.
• Support groups for ministry wives provide consistent, safe spaces for real healing.

Chapter Markers

00:00 Cold open and setup 03:22 Introductions; why this conversation matters 05:49 “You’re done here”: the termination moment 09:29 Red flags and the slow drift toward decision 11:29 Rejection before the firing; betrayal and shock 16:32 The body keeps the score: words fail, pain speaks 20:06 Day zero logistics: kids, school, where to go 26:51 Finding footing: packing, jobs, housing 31:24 When the church orbits the pastor and forgets the spouse 35:29 How boards can reduce harm and do this better 40:11 Healing in community: support groups for ministry wives 50:17 Life after ministry: new work, real purpose 53:18 Preparing for a high-risk profession: finances and wisdom 55:24 Resources, next steps, and hope

Connect with Matt and the team at MinistryTransitions.com for guidance through terminations, transitions, or succession planning. Explore Kristen’s support groups and coaching at KristenJoyCoaching.com for pastors’ wives and women navigating ministry fallout.

In this honest conversation, Scott Sauls reflects on stepping away after more than 30 years of pastoral ministry, processing the loss of a role he loved, recovering from work addiction, and discovering a new calling shepherding high-capacity leaders. 

Along the way, he offers wisdom about identity, friendship, reconciliation, and trusting God when the future feels uncertain.

• Ministry transitions often bring grief and relief at the same time.
• Work addiction can quietly shape a leader's identity and relationships.
• Healthy transitions begin with embracing who you are apart from your role.
• Every leader needs authentic friendships, not just professional relationships.
• The gospel calls us to love across differences, especially when it's difficult.

00:00 Scott's ministry journey and pastoral background

02:20 An unexpected transition from pastoral ministry

05:00 Grief, relief, and leaving a church you love

07:00 Confronting work addiction through recovery

09:30 Is Scott still a pastor?

11:00 The birth of the Sycamore Community

16:30 Shepherding leaders outside the local church

18:30 The impact of ministry transitions on spouses and families

21:00 Loving across the lines of difference

27:00 The Mercy King and God's relentless love

If you're navigating a ministry transition, start a conversation with a specialist at Ministry Transitions. Learn more about Scott's work at Scott Sauls.

In this season-ending episode, we reflect on the patterns Ministry Transitions has seen over the past year while walking with pastors, boards, nonprofits, and faith-driven organizations.

From delayed conversations to the quiet crisis of succession, this episode names the realities leaders often feel but rarely say out loud. 

It’s an honest look at why transitions feel so heavy, why waiting makes them harder, and how support can change the outcome entirely.

This is not a forecast for what’s next. It’s a grounded invitation to name what’s already here and walk through it with wisdom, care, and courage.

• Most transitions happen later than they should, not because of neglect but misplaced protection
• Waiting does not make transitions easier. It makes them more expensive
• Succession planning is about stewardship, not replacement
• Ministry transitions extend far beyond the church into nonprofits and faith-driven organizations
• Many leaders engage support only after the ending has already occurred
• Leaders are often relieved, not resistant, when care is offered
• Support consistently changes outcomes for leaders and organizations

• 00:00 – When transition feels unfinished
• 05:20 – Why transitions are happening too late
• 11:10 – Succession as a silent crisis
• 17:30 – Ministry beyond the church walls
• 23:45 – Why people listen quietly
• 29:10 – What happens when leaders are offered support
• 35:40 – Why support changes outcomes

If you’re in a transition, leading others through one, or want to help someone who didn’t see this coming, visit MinistryTransitions.com to book a confidential call, explore resources, or give toward supporting a leader in transition. You don’t have to walk this alone.

In this deeply personal conversation, Steve Cummings shares his journey through ministry leadership, addiction recovery, job loss, financial uncertainty, and ultimately discovering a deeper identity as a beloved son of God. 

From sitting in rehab at age 55 to working at Home Depot and eventually launching Bringing Kingdom, Steve offers hope for anyone learning to trust God in a season they never planned for.

• Your identity is not determined by your title, income, or position.
• Hidden struggles become more dangerous when they remain isolated.
• Recovery begins when honesty replaces shame.
• God often uses seasons of transition to reveal deeper truths about who we are.
• Ministry is not confined to a church building or nonprofit organization.

00:00 Friendship, ministry history, and Steve's background

01:30 Seminary, missed opportunities, and unexpected career turns

03:45 Building a career in nonprofit ministry

06:00 Hidden struggles, addiction, and personal collapse

08:00 Rehab, recovery, and discovering the deeper issues

11:00 Losing a ministry position and starting over

12:30 Working at Home Depot and confronting identity

16:00 Launching Bringing Kingdom

21:30 The Father Eclipse and understanding father wounds

28:00 Helping men discover their identity

31:30 Financial uncertainty, faith, and trusting God's provision

40:30 Is there life after ministry?

If you're navigating a leadership transition or difficult season, start a conversation with a specialist at Ministry Transitions. Learn more about Steve's ministry at Bringing Kingdom.

Summary

In this episode, Matt Davis interviews J. Ricardo Smith at the Classic City Conference in Athens, Georgia. They discuss the purpose and origins of the conference, the state of the black church post-COVID, the challenges of identity and transition in ministry, finding hope and help in difficult seasons, planning for the future of the conference, and the importance of mental health in ministry. J. Ricardo Smith shares his insights and experiences, emphasizing the need for community and support in pastoral leadership.

Takeaways

• The Classic City Conference was created to provide resources and solutions for small to mid-sized church pastors.

• The COVID-19 pandemic had both positive and negative impacts on the black church, highlighting the need for shared leadership and addressing issues of identity and worth.

• Pastors need to recognize their value and worth outside of their role as a senior pastor and be open to transitions and new seasons in ministry.

• Finding hope and help in difficult seasons of ministry requires community, support, and access to resources like counseling and therapy.

• The Classic City Conference aims to offer ongoing support and resources beyond the annual event, helping pastors navigate the challenges of ministry.

Chapters

00:00 - Introduction to the Classic City Conference

04:04 - The State of the Black Church

08:23 - Identity and Transition in Ministry

10:12 - Finding Hope and Help in Ministry

12:02 - Planning for the Future of the Conference

14:19 - The Importance of Mental Health in Ministry

17:07 - Connecting with J. Ricardo Smith and Classic City Conference

Summary

Dr. Michael Shafer shares his journey of transitioning out of full-time ministry and starting G6 Allies, a ministry that supports pastors and church leaders. He discusses the challenges he faced, including being blindsided by his termination and the impact it had on his family. Despite the difficulties, he found healing and purpose in helping other pastors and their families through G6 Allies. He also shares his experience of starting G6 Church and the importance of building resilient Christian leaders. Overall, his story highlights the resilience and faithfulness of God in the midst of life's challenges.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Background 03:04 Transitioning out of Full-Time Ministry 09:23 Dealing with the Blindsiding and Anger 12:14 Starting G6 Allies 17:17 G6 Allies: Building Resilient Christian Leaders 19:19 Supporting Pastors' Wives 22:18 Starting G6 Church 25:01 Life After Ministry 28:11 Connecting with G6 Allies

Change is inevitable, especially in our careers.

For those who have devoted their lives to the profound call of ministry, transitioning away can seem not just like a change of job, but a seismic shift in identity and purpose. But it's essential to remember: transitions in ministry can also be immensely positive and lead to vibrant new beginnings. And while there are undoubted challenges and heartaches, there's also hope, rejuvenation, and tales of transitions that have unfolded beautifully.

'Life After Ministry' dives into this intricate and often overlooked journey. Hosts Matt and Marilee Davis, who've weathered the complexities of this change themselves, open up about their experiences and introduce listeners to others who've walked the same path. Their stories range from those of struggle and rediscovery to those where transitions were embraced with joy and anticipation.

And don't worry, this isn’t a space for bitterness or blame. Matt and Marilee firmly believe in the beauty and purpose of the church. While they address the challenges faced by those leaving ministry roles, they do so with an unwavering faith that, in the end, Jesus loves His church, and she will emerge splendid and radiant.

If you've ever felt the tremors of significant life change or understand the profound journey of starting anew, 'Life After Ministry' is your companion in understanding, healing, and hope. This isn't just a podcast; it's a heartfelt invitation into a community that knows, understands, and walks with you.

Summary

This conversation explores the challenges and struggles faced by pastors and their families in ministry. The guests, Shawn and Sonny Hennessy, share their personal journey of leaving ministry and finding restoration. They discuss the need for emotional growth, the systemic issues within the church, and the importance of creating a culture of vulnerability. They also highlight their work in providing a retreat center for pastors and individuals in need of healing and restoration. The conversation emphasizes the idea that there is life after ministry and that God can use individuals in various ways outside of traditional ministry roles.

Chapters

00:00 - Introduction and Background

02:59 - Call into Ministry

05:07 - Struggles and Exit from Ministry

08:03 - Identity Crisis and Challenges

10:58 - The Need for Emotional Growth

11:50 - Issues with Church Leadership

17:18 - The Systemic Problem in Ministry

18:17 - Changes in Ministry Approach

25:17 - The Retreat Center and Restoration

31:30 - Creating a Culture of Vulnerability

36:39 - Finding Purpose Outside of Ministry

We sat down with Justin and Amanda McNeil at the American Association of Christian Counselors conference, and their story is nothing short of compelling.

What sets their story apart is its testament to the notion that transitions out of vocational ministry don't have to be filled with negativity or go horribly wrong. In fact, their journey illustrates that even the most complex shifts can be navigated with grace, hope, and what they call "brutiful" resilience.

Justin and Amanda take us on a ride from their earliest days meeting in kids' church to their committed years serving as pastors, and onto a new, unexpected chapter as therapists. This episode peels back the layers on what it means to transition well, offering both the challenges and rewards that come with embracing change. You'll hear not just about the difficulties, but also the beautiful moments of discovery, transformation, and renewed purpose that can exist in life after ministry.

Don't miss this episode if you're interested in understanding how transitions can be thoughtfully navigated, how a new calling can emerge from the old, and how the spirit of service can flourish outside traditional church settings. Justin and Amanda's compelling story serves as a beacon of light, demonstrating that there is not only life after ministry but also meaningful work that continues to fulfill a divine purpose.

To learn more about the work and continued life after ministry of Justin and Amanda McNeil, click here.

Summary

Jon Morrison shares his journey from vocational ministry to entrepreneurship. He discusses his call to ministry, the catalyst that brought him out of ministry, and the challenges he faced during the scrambling season. Jon emphasizes the transferable skills that pastors possess and how they can be applied in the marketplace. He shares his own experiences in entrepreneurship and highlights the blessings and opportunities that come with life after ministry. Jon encourages pastors to have hope and embrace the new possibilities that await them.

Takeaways

• There is life after vocational ministry, and it can be fulfilling and rewarding.
• Pastors possess transferable skills that can be applied in the marketplace.
• Adaptability, communication, leadership, and the ability to simplify complex ideas are valuable skills for pastors in the marketplace.
• Life after ministry offers opportunities for personal growth, financial stability, and the ability to pursue other passions and interests.
• Trusting in God's plan and providence is essential during the transition from ministry to a new career.

Chapters

00:00 - Introduction and Recording Setup 00:29 - Background and Call to Ministry 03:06 - Catalyst for Leaving Ministry 06:09 - Lifelong Commitment to Ministry? 08:36 - Scrambling Season and Finding Work 09:18 - Discovering Entrepreneurship 12:52 - Life After Vocational Ministry 16:56 - Transferable Skills from Ministry 23:39 - God's Plan and Providence 32:54 - Is There Life After Ministry?

In this episode, Jim West reflects on what it meant to hand off leadership of the Barnabas Group, a ministry he helped build and lead for over two decades. 

Just weeks after that transition, Jim was diagnosed with cancer, forcing him into a season of surrender he never planned.

This conversation explores succession, identity, grief, and trust. It’s an honest look at what happens when God asks you to release what you love, and how unexpected seasons can become some of the most formative and meaningful of your life.

• Succession is not an emergency plan. It’s a discipleship issue.
• Founders often grieve more than they expect when they step away.
• A ministry continuing without you can be a sign of health, not failure.
• Forced stillness can protect both leaders and organizations.
• Identity untethered from role allows for deeper trust in God.
• Life after ministry can be fuller, not smaller.
• Transitions require guides, not just decisions.

• 00:00 – Jim’s path into the Barnabas Group
• 03:30 – Recognizing the need for succession
• 05:20 – Passing the baton and receiving a cancer diagnosis
• 07:40 – Watching the ministry grow without him
• 11:50 – Faith, cancer, and spiritual clarity
• 16:00 – Discovering life and ministry after leadership
• 27:10 – Advice for leaders facing transition

If you or your organization are facing a leadership transition, visit ministrytransitions.com to book a confidential conversation and get support that protects people, preserves purpose, and plans wisely for what’s next.

In the inaugural episode of the Life After Ministry Podcast, hosts Matt and Marilee Davis open up about their own journey post-ministry. 

With vulnerability, they discuss the challenges and opportunities they encountered as they transitioned into a new career, community, and even way of life. 

The episode digs into the complexities of untangling emotional and spiritual intricacies that come with leaving a ministry role. 

Whether you're a pastor contemplating a career change, or a leader helping someone through this significant life transition, this episode offers invaluable insights on navigating the journey with wisdom and grace. 

Don't miss this heartfelt and informative debut.

After leading the church he planted for 27 years, Keith Spurgin shares the lessons he learned about succession, feedback, sabbaticals, and letting go with confidence. 

He also reflects on the leadership mistakes he nearly made during COVID and how stepping away for a year ultimately prepared both him and his church for a healthy transition.

• Healthy succession planning begins years before the transition.
• Founder transitions often succeed when leadership is shared rather than concentrated in one successor.
• Sabbaticals create space for leaders to rediscover who they are apart from their role.
• Feedback reveals blind spots that leaders cannot see on their own.
• Legacy is built by preparing others to succeed after you're gone.

00:00 Introduction and Keith's ministry journey

00:45 Nearly derailing a succession plan during COVID

01:45 Why handing leadership to a team changed everything

06:45 Building trust before succession

07:45 Why Keith stayed away for six months after stepping down

09:00 Lessons from an unexpected year-long sabbatical

15:20 Why every leader needs honest feedback

18:15 Processing life after ministry

24:00 The Growth Resourcing Group

26:00 Unknown: Finding Connection in a Disconnected World

27:30 Why Keith's next book is about finishing well

Preparing for a leadership transition? Start a conversation with a specialist at Ministry Transitions. Learn more about Keith's leadership resources at Keith Spurgin.

Summary

Alan Ramsey shares his journey of transitioning out of vocational ministry and into a new career. He discusses the challenges and emotions he faced during this transition, as well as the support he received from his church leadership. Alan highlights the transferable skills he gained from ministry and how they apply to his current role as a corporate chaplain. He emphasizes the importance of giving oneself time to grieve and process the end of a ministry season. Alan also shares his perspective on finding hope, healing, and health in life after ministry.

Takeaways

• Transitioning out of vocational ministry can be a challenging and emotional process.

• Transferable skills gained from ministry can be valuable in a new career.

• Giving oneself time to grieve and process the end of a ministry season is important.

• Finding hope, healing, and health in life after ministry is possible.

Chapters

01:00 Background and Ministry Experience

04:24 Transitioning Out of Ministry

06:05 Recognizing the End of a Season

08:00 Navigating the Transition

10:51 Leaving Vocational Ministry

14:45 Day Zero and Starting a New Job

19:06 Ministry in a Different Context

23:08 Identity and Titles

25:12 Grieving and Processing the Transition

29:55 Hope, Healing, and Health

31:44 Embracing the Assignment

32:16 Conclusion

In "Facing And Forgiving Those Who Hurt You," the ninth episode of the Life After Ministry podcast, we’re invited into the world of Ryan and Lindsay Gentles. It's a tale of closing a decade-long chapter in ministry, of navigating farewells that feel more like eulogies than celebrations, and the struggle to exit gracefully without the dramatics of a "Jerry Maguire" moment.

What unfolds when silence is imposed, and the grief of leaving is a burden carried alone? How does a family find its way through the maze of loss, especially when young children are part of the equation, grappling with the concept of joblessness and churchlessness?

This episode touches the raw nerves of bitterness and isolation, but also of healing and forgiveness. It's about the courage to face those who've hurt you, the unexpected release found in forgiveness, and the profound wisdom earned through life's toughest battles.

And amidst the turbulence, we hear of Ryan's creative spirit, giving birth to his book published this year, "Did Jesus Wear Undies?" — answering questions his young children would ask and throwing a theological life raft to parents drowning in the curiosity of kids trying to figure it all out. 

Join us for an episode filled with raw emotion, hard-won wisdom, and the kind of deep, soulful wrestle that reshapes lives. We love Ryan and Lindsay Gentles and think you will too!

Find Ryan at ryangentles.com and Lindsay at True North. Buy the book, "Did Jesus Wear Undies?" here.

For many ministry leaders, the hardest battles are not theological. They are personal. Emotional. Quiet. And often fought alone.

In this episode, Matt Davis sits down with Don Ross, former pastor and founder of Manhood Tribes, to talk about why so many men struggle in silence, especially during seasons of ministry transition. 

After two decades in large evangelical church leadership, Don stepped away - not because he stopped loving Jesus, but because the system was breaking him. 

What followed was a difficult transition marked by uncertainty, financial pressure, and identity questions that many ministry leaders quietly face. This conversation pulls back the curtain on isolation, addiction, shame, and the deep need for brotherhood. 

If you are navigating transition, questioning your direction, or responsible for leading others through change, this episode offers both clarity and hope. 

No man should have to walk alone.

• Ministry leadership can be both deeply fulfilling and profoundly exhausting at the same time.
• Many church systems unintentionally isolate pastors rather than care for them.
• Churches often struggle to reach men because they build connection models that don’t align with how men bond.
• Pornography addiction thrives in isolation and shame, even among pastors.
• Bringing struggle into the light is the first step toward freedom.
• Transition seasons destabilize identity, especially around provision and purpose.
• Intentional, challenge-based brotherhood can anchor men during seasons of uncertainty.

 00:00 – Introduction and framing the conversation about men 01:00 – Don’s ministry journey and transition 06:00 – The celebrity pastor model and systemic pressure 08:00 – Why churches struggle to reach men 16:00 – The five marks of manhood 19:00 – Pornography, shame, and isolation 24:00 – How tribes work differently than typical men’s groups 31:00 – Financial pressure and identity in transition 37:00 – Fulfillment after leaving vocational ministry

Ready to take your next step? Visit MinistryTransitions.com to book a confidential call about an upcoming transition, termination, or succession. Explore Don’s resources at ManhoodTribes.com and take the quiz at HowManlyAreYou.com. If this episode helped you, consider donating to support leaders navigating transition.

In this episode, Curt Swindoll shares insights from 40 years of leadership across nonprofit, church, and for-profit environments. 

Having transitioned multiple times - sometimes with a plan, sometimes without - Curt challenges the assumption that ministry is something we leave behind. 

Instead, he invites leaders to rethink their posture toward God, especially during seasons of uncertainty.

For leaders navigating burnout, succession, or vocational transition, this conversation reframes the journey. 

The issue is not whether you are in ministry or business. The deeper issue is whether you are living for God or with Him. 

And that distinction changes everything.

• There is no sacred-secular divide. God is as present in the marketplace as in the church.
• Burnout often reveals a “for God” posture that has replaced a “with God” relationship.
• Transitions are rarely clean; God’s presence is not dependent on clarity.
• Work is one of the primary places of spiritual formation.
• Discernment is not about finding one perfect path but learning to journey wisely with God.
• Succession is less about ending ministry and more about shifting where and how ministry happens.
• Peace and freedom are often the deeper invitation beneath vocational change.

00:00 – Is There Really Life After Ministry? 02:30 – Sacred vs. Secular: A False Divide 07:00 – Transitioning Without a Plan 10:00 – Life With God vs. Life For God 15:00 – Burnout and Identity in Ministry 21:00 – The Role of Spiritual Formation and Marriage 24:00 – Moving Between Ministry and Marketplace 29:00 – God at the Door in Seasons of Anxiety 33:00 – Lessons from a Lifetime of Ministry Transitions 43:00 – Succession, Discernment, and “Never Say Never” 50:00 – Practical Resources and Final Encouragement

If this conversation stirred something in you - whether you're navigating a leadership transition, discerning succession, or simply longing to experience more of a life with God - there are a few trusted next steps. 

For confidential support and guidance through ministry transitions, visit https://ministrytransitions.com. 

To explore spiritual formation resources and connect with trained spiritual directors, go to https://graftedlife.org. 

And if you're leading an organization and want clarity, traction, and a healthier operating rhythm, learn more about EOS at https://www.eosworldwide.com or connect directly with Curt at https://www.eosworldwide.com/curt-swindoll. Wherever you are in your journey, you don’t have to walk it alone.

Many leaders imagine retirement will bring peace and freedom. 

But for pastors, the transition often carries unexpected weight. The loss of identity, the quiet grief of leaving a community, and the challenge of rediscovering purpose can make the next season far more complicated than anticipated.

After serving the same church for 35 years, Doug Bullock faced this reality firsthand. What began as a thoughtful transition into retirement turned into a deeper journey through loss, identity, and calling. 

In the process, he discovered that many pastors are unprepared for the emotional and spiritual questions that follow the end of pastoral leadership.

In this conversation, Doug shares what surprised him most after stepping away from ministry and why retiring pastors still have a crucial role in strengthening the church. 

Together they explore how pastors can process loss, redeem past pain, and find renewed purpose beyond the pulpit.

• Retirement from ministry often includes unexpected grief and identity loss • Many pastors are unprepared for the emotional impact of stepping away • Feelings of obscurity after decades of leadership can be surprisingly difficult • Retired pastors still carry valuable wisdom that can benefit younger leaders • Churches rarely have a clear vision for how retired pastors can remain involved • Processing pain and past failures is essential for healthy transition • Flourishing after ministry means continuing to walk with Christ and serve faithfully in new ways

 00:00 – Meeting Doug Bullock and his book New Dawn 01:05 – Recognizing when it was time to step away from pastoral leadership 03:59 – Transitioning out of ministry and returning to school 06:00 – Discovering the deeper questions of pastoral retirement 08:07 – The emotional struggles pastors face after stepping down 11:03 – The experience of becoming unknown after years of leadership 13:41 – The key questions pastors must wrestle with in retirement 23:26 – Why many retired pastors struggle attending church 28:13 – The tension between older and younger pastoral generations 32:28 – The coming wave of pastoral retirements 34:03 – What it means to truly flourish in retirement 36:04 – Advice for pastors preparing to step away from ministry 38:37 – Redeeming past pain and helping the next generation

If you’re navigating a ministry transition or preparing for what comes next, visit ministrytransitions.com to find guidance, resources, or schedule a confidential conversation. 

You can also explore Doug Bullock’s book New Dawn: Helping Pastors Flourish in Retirement on Amazon or connect with him directly at DTS844@gmail.com.

In this episode of Life After Ministry, Matt Davis sits down with Holly Tate, founder of The Ready Network, to talk about leadership, courage, and stepping into the unknown.

Holly shares her own story of transition - from years at Vanderbloemen, to joining Leadr, to launching her own work helping leaders and teams move from stuck to unstuck. 

Along the way, she opens up about fear, the myth of readiness, and how emotional intelligence shapes the future of ministry leadership.

For pastors, boards, and ministry leaders wrestling with change, this episode offers both empathy and clarity: you don’t have to have it all figured out. You just need the courage to take the next step.

• Why emotional intelligence often outweighs skills in ministry hiring.
• The unique challenges of church staffing versus corporate staffing.
• Holly’s hardest transition and what it taught her about calling.
• How the Ready Framework moves leaders from chaos to clarity.
• Why starting scared is better than never starting at all.
• The “Yes Barometer” that keeps teams from being derailed by new ideas.
• How transformation requires courage, vulnerability, and faith.

• 00:00 – Matt introduces Holly Tate
• 01:30 – Early leadership influences and church impact
• 05:30 – Lessons from staffing and hiring in ministry
• 08:50 – Transition to Leader and lessons from 2020
• 15:10 – Starting scared: email, podcast, and new ventures
• 21:00 – The Ready Framework explained
• 26:45 – Why teams need the Yes Barometer
• 29:30 – Becoming ready by doing

• Learn more resources for ministry transitions at MinistryTransitions.com
• Explore Holly’s coaching and clarity framework at TheReadyNetwork.com

Bill and Kristi Gaultiere say empathy is oxygen for the soul, and many leaders are gasping without realizing it. 

They join Matt to unpack how Jesus models secure attachment with the Father and how we can receive and reflect that love in daily life.

Bill and Kristi name the empathy deserts many of us grew up in, why ministry culture often rewards self-neglect, and how receiving care is not a luxury. It is discipleship. 

The conversation lands with the Four A’s of Empathy. Ask. Attune. Acknowledge. Affirm. Practice these, and watch connection and courage return.

If you are ending a role, beginning again, or preparing for a hard meeting, this episode offers biblical wisdom and field-tested tools to do hard things with Jesus’ easy yoke.

• Empathy is not sentimentality. It is the way love becomes believable and actionable. “We love because He first loved us.”
• Many leaders grew up in empathy deserts. Naming this breaks shame and opens us to care.
• Jesus models secure attachment with the Father. Presence before performance. Prayer before platform.
• The Four A’s of Empathy help in any conversation. Ask. Attune. Acknowledge significance. Affirm strengths.
• Receiving empathy enlarges capacity for compassion at home and work.
• Empathy transforms hard transitions. It dignifies layoffs, fuels grief work, and softens the ground for forgiveness.
• Leaders need safe people and slow practices that rebuild attachment to God and others.

• 00:00 Welcome and name pronunciation fun
• 01:38 What is Soul Shepherding and the easy yoke of Jesus
• 04:10 Release day for Deeply Loved and why empathy matters
• 04:43 Empathy deserts and early stories that shape leaders
• 07:45 Why Christian leaders struggle to receive love
• 11:06 Empathy is oxygen for the soul
• 14:48 “Is empathy soft?” Gender, strength, and honesty
• 20:38 Attachment, secure bonds, and practical tools
• 26:30 Theology plus psychology in Deeply Loved
• 27:03 The Four A’s of Empathy explained
• 38:22 Empathy in layoffs, burnout, and hard meetings
• 43:53 Where to find the book and Soul Shepherding retreats
• 45:08 Close and gratitude

Explore More Resources:

Dive deeper into the themes of this episode by visiting soulshepherding.org/deeplylovedbook for Bill and Kristi Gaultier’s Deeply Loved, and find confidential guidance and support for ministry transitions at ministrytransitions.com.

Summary

Kyle and Maria Isabelli share their experience of being fired from their church ministry and the emotional impact it had on them. They discuss the process of being let go, the loss they felt, and the journey of healing and finding purpose again. Kyle wrote a book titled 'Refined by the Fired' to help others who have gone through similar experiences. They emphasize the importance of clear expectations and communication in ministry and the need for empathy and shepherding in leadership roles. Despite the challenges, they remain committed to ministry and continue to serve in their new roles.

Takeaways

• Being fired from a church ministry can be a deeply emotional and challenging experience, resulting in a sense of loss and grief.
• Clear expectations and communication are crucial in ministry to avoid misunderstandings and conflicts.
• Going through the process of being fired can lead to personal growth, empathy, and a deeper understanding of the needs of staff and ministry workers.
• Finding purpose and healing after being fired requires reflection, processing pain, and relying on God's guidance and direction.

Chapters

00:00 - Introduction and Background 01:00 - Transition into Ministry 03:44 - The Call to Ministry 05:40 - Transition Out of Ministry 07:49 - The Process of Being Let Go 09:49 - Emotional Impact and Loss 12:09 - Reflecting on the Experience 14:53 - Writing the Book 25:29 - Continuing in Ministry 30:13 - Book Release and Conclusion

Episode 4 of the Life After Ministry Podcast is a replay of a conversation Matt Davis had on Josh Harris's podcast, "Clear and Loud."

Entitled "The Holy Mess of Pastoral Transitions," this episode dives deep into the complexities that come with leaving a role in ministry.

With over two decades of experience as a Teaching and Executive Pastor, Matt shares the hard lessons learned during his own exit from pastoral service.

The episode answers crucial questions like:

• Why are pastoral transitions uniquely painful?
• How does a shift in roles impact one's family?
• And why do so many pastors feel the need to leave their church community altogether?

Through this talk, we hope that you find healing, whatever or wherever you journey finds you today.

Summary

In this episode, Matt and Marilee Davis discuss eight things that ministry leaders need in their transition out of ministry. These include consistent community support, affirmation of personal integrity and worth, financial guidance and support, spousal and family support, professional development and coaching opportunities, legal and administrative support, access to solid Christian therapy, and spiritual direction and guidance. They emphasize the importance of these resources in navigating the challenges and growth opportunities that come with transitioning out of ministry.

Takeaways

• Consistent community support is crucial for ministry leaders transitioning out of ministry, as it can be disorienting and lonely.

• Affirmation of personal integrity and worth is important, especially for men in ministry who often struggle with their identity tied to their job.

• Financial guidance and support are necessary, as pastors often don't qualify for unemployment and may not have significant savings.

• Spousal and family support and engagement are essential, as the transition affects the entire family and can lead to instability.

• Professional development and coaching opportunities help ministry leaders transition into new industries and utilize their skills in different contexts.

• Legal and administrative support is needed to navigate contractual and legal matters, especially when NDAs are involved.

• Access to solid Christian therapy is beneficial for emotional and spiritual health during the transition.

• Spiritual direction and guidance help ministry leaders discern God's leading and navigate the next season of life.

Chapters

00:00 - Eight Things Ministry Leaders Need

08:30 - Financial Guidance and Support

13:14 - Spousal and Family Support

16:34 - Professional Development and Coaching

21:44 - Christian Therapy

25:04 - Spiritual Direction and Guidance

In this honest conversation, Dustin Kleinschmidt shares how years of crisis leadership, misaligned values, and unresolved grief led to burnout, anxiety, and a deep reckoning with faith. 

Rather than rushing toward resolution, Dustin invites leaders to reconsider what the wilderness is actually for.

This episode reframes suffering, challenges Christian shortcuts around pain, and offers language for leaders who feel stuck between obedience and disappointment. 

If you’ve ever wondered whether you missed God or why healing is taking so long, this conversation meets you right where you are.

• Burnout is often the result of long-term erosion, not one failure
• Healthy systems can’t sustain you in an unhealthy environment
• The wilderness often begins after the role ends
• Spiritual bypassing keeps leaders disconnected from their real pain
• Value misalignment creates invisible but constant friction
• Healing doesn’t mean closure or clarity
• God’s presence in the wilderness matters more than getting out of it

• 00:00 – Dustin’s ministry journey and early formation
• 03:30 – Crisis leadership and long-term erosion
• 06:20 – When sustainability quietly disappears
• 09:30 – Why good systems still fail in toxic environments
• 11:20 – Entering the wilderness after resignation
• 15:20 – Spiritual bypassing and emotional honesty
• 18:30 – The Exodus, expectations, and disappointment with God
• 24:00 – Living faithfully without resolution
• 28:15 – The Wilderness Way: book, workbook, and music

If you’re in the wilderness and looking for faithful companions along the way, explore The Wilderness Way and Ministry Transitions. Together, they offer resources to help you live honestly with God in hard seasons and engage Scripture with deeper historical and spiritual clarity. Learn more at https://www.dustinkleinschmidt.com and https://thejewishroad.com.

Summary:

In this episode, Pastor Dan Broyles discusses the challenges pastors face when seeking counseling and the importance of grieving their own losses. He also highlights the need for pastors to connect with others outside their church community and provides hope for those in times of transition.

Our guest, Dan Broyles, wears two significant hats – that of a Care Pastor and a licensed Christian therapist. Known for his profound ability to offer solace, Dan is the go-to person for pastors across the region seeking guidance and support.

In this episode, we dive into a less-discussed aspect of pastoral life: the accumulation of losses that ministry leaders endure. From the emotional weight of their congregants' struggles to their own personal challenges, pastors carry a heavy load. Dan emphasizes the crucial yet often neglected practice of grieving one's own losses. He explains the importance of acknowledging and processing these experiences, not just for the health of the pastor but for the well-being of their ministry.

Dan's insights shed light on why self-care isn't just advisable for pastors – it's essential. He discusses why counseling isn’t just for their congregation but is a vital resource for pastors themselves. With his unique perspective as both a pastor and a therapist, Dan offers invaluable advice on navigating the emotional toll of ministry while maintaining personal and spiritual health.

To learn more about Dan Broyles' work and access resources for pastoral care, visit SagaCenter.org and Valencia Hills Community Church located about an hour north of downtown Los Angeles.

• Pastors often struggle to seek counseling within their own church community due to fear of judgment or misunderstanding.
• Grieving one's own losses is an essential part of the pastoral journey, but many pastors neglect this process.
• Pastors can find support and understanding by connecting with other pastors who have experienced similar challenges.
• It is important for pastors to prioritize their own needs and seek connections outside their church community.

Too often, we hear stories of toxic leadership, forced terminations, and broken congregations. And yet, no one wants to talk about it - not in the pulpit, not in the pews. The result? Wounds that never heal, pastors who burn out, and churches stuck in cycles of dysfunction.

In this episode, we sit down with Kayleigh Clark from Restor(y)to talk about church trauma, spiritual abuse, and the path toward real healing. This isn’t just theory - it’s real-life ministry, where pain meets restoration.

✅ Church trauma is real - and it doesn’t just affect congregants. Pastors are hurting, too. ✅ Healing must happen inside the church - we can’t keep looking for solutions outside the body of Christ. ✅ Difficult transitions leave lasting scars - but identifying past wounds is the first step to moving forward. ✅ God’s solution? Shepherds who care for the flock - not just institutions, but people who lead with compassion.

⏳ [00:00] – Why church trauma isn’t just an individual issue ⏳ [04:30] – The hidden cost of toxic congregations and forced terminations ⏳ [10:15] – Why “revitalization” often fails when trauma is ignored ⏳ [15:40] – What it means to be a trauma-informed pastor ⏳ [24:00] – How Restor(y) is helping churches rewrite their narratives ⏳ [30:10] – Practical steps toward healing, for both pastors and congregations

If church hurt has left you wounded, you’re not alone. Whether you’re a pastor in transition, a church leader navigating dysfunction, or a congregation longing for restoration, there is hope.

🔹 Learn more about Restor(y)’s work at restorycenter.com 🔹 If you need a safe space to talk, we’re here. Visit pastoraltransitions.com to start the conversation. 🔹 If you believe in this work, consider donating to help pastors in crisis find healing.

The church can be whole again. But it starts with facing the wounds. Let’s walk that road together.

In this conversation, longtime pastor Wayne Hoag reflects on the painful lessons he learned after leaving one church unprepared for his departure and how that experience shaped a completely different approach to succession later in ministry. 

Together, we explore what healthy pastoral transitions require: humility, long-term preparation, deep love for the church, and the willingness to release control before crisis forces the issue.

The conversation also digs into the spiritual side of leadership transition. Wayne shares how unity and love inside the body of Christ become especially important during seasons of change and why churches that avoid difficult conversations often create deeper wounds later.

• Healthy pastoral succession starts years before the actual transition.
• Churches often avoid transition conversations until crisis forces them.
• A pastor must gradually release responsibility if the next leader is going to succeed.
• Unity in the church is built around Christ, not personalities or preferences.
• Ministry purpose does not end when a pastor steps away from the pulpit.

00:00 - Wayne’s painful lesson from leaving a church unprepared 

03:34 - Building a long-term succession plan 

05:45 - Identifying and mentoring the next pastor 

07:53 - The temptation to hold onto control 

09:52 - How the church stayed unified during transition 

15:13 - The heart behind The One Another Project 

17:43 - Why churches struggle with unity and love 

19:49 - Why pastoral transitions create vulnerability 

23:48 - What healthy transitions require from leaders 

25:33 - Discovering purpose after pastoral ministry 

30:36 - Why churches cannot afford to ignore succession planning

Start a conversation with the team at Ministry Transitions to learn more about healthy pastoral succession, church leadership transition planning, and life after ministry at ministrytransitions.com. 

You can also connect with Wayne Hoag and explore The One Another Project, his book, blog, and ministry resources at oneanotheronline.org. 

Whether you are preparing proactively for a transition or navigating one right now, both ministries exist to help churches pursue healthy leadership handoffs rooted in unity, wisdom, and care for the body of Christ.

• Embrace your unique calling and gifts in ministry.
• Consider the possibilities of bivocational ministry.
• Explore entrepreneurial opportunities in the marketplace.
• Find a new path that aligns with your passions and skills.

Summary

In this conversation, Pastor Toney Parks shares his journey from an unlikely candidate to becoming a pastor and his experiences growing up in Birmingham. He discusses the influence of Martin Luther King Jr. and the importance of community in the black church. Pastor Parks reflects on his 32 years of pastoring a church and the decision to retire. He emphasizes the need for pastors to prepare for retirement and shares his own plans for life after ministry.

Takeaways

• The black church has played a significant role in the African American community, providing a sense of family and community.
• Pastors in the black community often retire later in life or die in the pulpit due to various factors such as financial constraints and fear of the unknown.
• Retiring from ministry requires careful planning and preparation, both financially and emotionally.
• There is life after ministry, and retired pastors can continue to serve and make a difference in their communities through teaching and mentoring.

Chapters

00:00 - Introduction and Purpose of the Conference 01:40 - Unlikely Candidate to Pastor 03:07 - Encountering Jesus and Growing Up in Birmingham 07:45 - Influence of Martin Luther King Jr. 11:31 - Pastoring a Church for 32 Years 23:57 - Retiring from Ministry 29:39 - Life After Ministry 38:33 - Preparing for Retirement 46:33 - Closing Remarks

In unclear expectations, undefined roles, and decisions made without discernment. 

This episode explores how fear, lack of clarity, and misaligned leadership structures quietly shape outcomes. It offers a clearer path forward for leaders and boards navigating change.

• Fear of mistakes can stall leadership more than mistakes themselves
• Decision-making and spiritual discernment are not the same skill
• Most ministry breakdowns begin with unclear expectations around results
• Boards often drift into staff roles when responsibilities aren’t defined
• Healthy transitions require humility, clarity, and shared understanding

 00:00 — Introduction and John’s leadership background 02:30 — How ministry has changed over time 06:30 — Fear, mistakes, and leadership growth 10:50 — The danger of unclear expectations in leadership 16:50 — Board roles vs. staff roles explained 19:50 — What leaders often get wrong in transitions 28:00 — Why board training is so difficult to scale 32:50 — A defining moment of spiritual discernment 39:00 — Recommended books and final thoughts

If this conversation surfaced something in your own leadership or board dynamics, don’t leave it there.

Start a conversation with us at https://ministrytransitions.com. Whether you’re in the middle of a transition or trying to prepare for one, having the right guide can bring clarity to what feels uncertain.

And if you want to go deeper into the ideas John shared around leadership, governance, and learning from mistakes, you can explore his work at https://managementbuckets.com. His insights are practical, seasoned, and grounded in decades of real ministry experience.

You don’t have to figure this out alone. Start the conversation.

Summary

In this conversation, Ian and Sharalee Smith share their journey of transitioning in and out of ministry and the lessons they have learned along the way. They discuss the decision to have six children and the challenges and blessings of raising a large family. They also talk about living in the wilderness and the importance of trusting God in uncertain times. They share their experiences of stepping out in faith and the invitation to know God on a deeper level. Finally, they discuss their current work with the Hero Collective and the importance of living one day at a time.

Takeaways

• Transitioning in and out of ministry can be a challenging and transformative experience.

• Trusting God in uncertain times and stepping out in faith can lead to unexpected blessings.

• Living in the wilderness can be a time of refinement and growth, where God invites us to know Him on a deeper level.

• Finding and embracing our unique identity and purpose is key to living a fulfilling life.

• Living one day at a time and trusting God's provision and guidance is essential in navigating an unpredictable future.

Chapters

• 00:00 - Introduction and Family Background

• 01:01 - The Decision to Have Six Children

• 03:07 - Transitioning in and out of Ministry

• 05:19 - Lessons Learned in Ministry

• 14:48 - Living in the Wilderness

• 18:11 - Stepping Out in Faith

• 21:44 - Experiencing God in the Wilderness

• 25:50 - Longing for the Comfort of the Past

• 29:15 - Living with an Unpredictable God

• 32:56 - Life After Ministry and the Hero Collective

• 38:39 - Living One Day at a Time

• 39:26 - Conclusion

In this episode of the Life After Ministry podcast, we tackle a critical issue that often serves as a catalyst for pastoral transitions: burnout. While our mission at Pastoral Transitions is to support ministry leaders in their journey out of ministry, we're equally passionate about preventing burnout to keep our church leaders healthy, strong, and vibrant.

Joining us is Jonathan Malm, co-author of "Don't Burn Out, Burn Bright," a book offering practical wisdom on avoiding the pitfalls that lead many in ministry to prematurely press the eject button. Jonathan's insights are not just theories - they are lifelines drawn from his experience and deep understanding of the unique pressures faced by those in ministry.

Burnout is more than just a buzzword - it's a reality that can deeply impact one’s spiritual, emotional, and physical well-being. Jonathan's approach to tackling this issue is both proactive and empowering. His book has strategies and principles that can transform the way pastors approach their calling, ensuring they can serve with longevity and joy.

Discover more about Jonathan and his impactful work at Don't Burn Out, Burn Bright. His insights extend beyond the pages of his book, as he continues to inspire and educate through his engaging Instagram account. Follow him at @jonathanmalm for a regular dose of humor, encouragement, and practical advice.

This episode is an essential listen for anyone in ministry seeking to navigate the demanding landscape of pastoral work without losing their spark. Let's dive into how we can keep our ministry leaders burning bright, not burning out.

What happens when you step away from the calling you’ve always known and venture into the unknown?

Jordan Whilden found himself at that crossroads, leaving behind nearly a decade of church ministry for an uncertain future in the marketplace.

But this episode of Life After Ministry is not just about leaving; it’s about rediscovering purpose, redefining ministry, and understanding that God's calling often transcends job titles.

Jordan's journey from pastor to CEO of Ministry Hub reveals how stepping away from a church role doesn’t mean stepping away from serving the Kingdom.

In this episode, Matt Davis talks with Jordan about the anxiety that comes with such a leap, the lessons learned, and how God continued to use his gifts in new, impactful ways.

For anyone wrestling with the question, "Is there life after ministry?" - Jordan’s story offers hope, clarity, and insight.

1. Transitioning Well: When stepping out of vocational ministry, it’s essential to take time for self-reflection and healing before jumping into the next chapter.
2. A New Kind of Ministry: Jordan’s experience shows that leaving church staff doesn’t mean leaving ministry. There are ways to serve the Kingdom that may have even broader impacts.
3. A Pastor’s Heart, Reimagined: Even when Jordan stepped into the marketplace, he carried the heart of a pastor, finding new ways to shepherd leaders through Ministry Hub.
4. Building Clarity: It’s crucial to understand your strengths, desires, and God’s calling before leaping into a new career - clarity leads to thriving.
5. Supporting Transitions: Ministry Hub focuses on helping pastors and churches navigate transitions effectively, recognizing the unique needs of both sides in today’s job market.

1. "As soon as I stepped into the marketplace, there was a breath of fresh air - freedom I didn’t realize I needed."
2. "Just because you leave the church doesn’t mean you leave ministry; I found a way to invest more in the Kingdom in a broader way."
3. "The goal is to land in a place where you thrive - where you can be the most fruitful in your calling."

• [00:00] Introduction – Matt Davis welcomes Jordan Whilden, founder and CEO of Ministry Hub.
• [00:10] Early Ministry Career – Jordan discusses his calling into ministry, starting as a high school pastor and moving into discipleship roles.
• [01:59] Decision to Leave Church Ministry – Jordan explains the factors that led him to leave his pastoral role, including burnout and church culture changes.
• [04:02] The Fear of Transition – The emotional and practical challenges of leaving ministry, and how Jordan navigated his “day zero” in stepping away from vocational church work.
• [05:14] Life After Ministry – Jordan reflects on his first Sunday post-ministry and the process of finding a new church home.
• [08:13] The Birth of Ministry Hub – How Jordan’s passion for connecting people and creating systems led to the development of Ministry Hub.
• [11:54] Serving Pastors in Transition – Jordan shares insights on what pastors look for when transitioning out of ministry, and how Ministry Hub supports them.
• [13:42] Serving Churches in Transition – Ministry Hub’s innovative approach to helping churches find new leaders through scalable, flexible staffing solutions.
• [17:26] Encouragement for Leaders in Transition – Jordan gives practical advice to pastors in transition, from crafting clear resumes to knowing their personal calling.
• [20:56] Redefining Ministry Beyond the Church – How Jordan sees his current work with Ministry Hub as a broader way to serve the church and the Kingdom.
• [23:45] How to Connect with Ministry Hub – Jordan shares how pastors and churches can connect with Ministry Hub for help in transitions and staffing.

For Brian Fisher, founder of a thriving pro-life nonprofit that saved over 18,000 lives, the answer wasn’t immediate. In 2020, he and his wife were forced out of the ministry they built. Their possessions came home in cardboard boxes, and their community turned silent.

In this raw and honest episode, Brian reflects on the crushing loneliness and profound disorientation that followed. But this isn’t just his story- it’s the story of countless ministry leaders who face the same unspoken challenges.

Together, we explore what happens on “Day One” after hitting rock bottom and begin to uncover the tools for navigating the inward journey, the wall, and the deep transformation that only comes through suffering.

• From Success to Loss: Brian recounts building a nonprofit that combined technology and Christ-centered care to save lives, only to lose everything suddenly in 2020.
• The Loneliness of Ministry Transition: When a leader is removed, awkward silences and a lack of support can amplify the grief, leaving them isolated.
• Facing Day Zero: After a ministry ends, many leaders feel lost and abandoned, wondering, “What now?”
• Understanding The Wall: The wall - a stage of profound disorientation - is where God invites us to sit in the pain and uncover deep truths about ourselves and Him.
• The Need for Witness: In seasons of suffering, what we often need most isn’t advice or solutions but someone to simply sit with us in the mess.

• "The hardest part wasn’t being fired. It was the deafening silence of people who used to stand with us."
• "The wall isn’t just a season - it’s an invitation to let God redefine what ‘good’ looks like."
• "We need people who will sit with us, not try to fix us, when life falls apart."
• "The church must get better at stages four, five, and six of discipleship - where transformation really happens."

• 0:00 – 3:09: Introduction: Meeting Brian Fisher
• 3:10 – 6:20: The Rise of a Pro-Life Nonprofit
• 6:21 – 9:08: The Loss: Forced Out Without Explanation
• 9:09 – 11:36: Navigating Day Zero: Loneliness and Isolation
• 11:37 – 15:12: The Journey Inward: Facing The Wall
• 15:13 – 17:12: The Role of Witness: How Others Can Help
• 17:13 – 21:27: Wrestling with God: Letting Go of Success
• 21:28 – 25:15: The Wall as a Gift: Redefining God’s Goodness

Brian Fisher’s story offers a blueprint for those navigating seasons of loss and disorientation. Learn more about how to embrace the inward journey and build communities for true spiritual growth.

• Website: SoilandRoots.org
• Podcast: Soil and Roots (Available on all platforms)
• Substack: Search Soil and Roots for thought-provoking articles

This is part one of Brian’s conversation. Don’t miss the next episode, where we dive deeper into his work with Soil and Roots and how he’s helping others grow spiritually after ministry transitions.

What do you do when God asks you to let go of the dream you’ve built your life around? Wade Joye, former worship leader at Elevation Church, shares his personal story of facing that very question. We talk about the book he wrote: This Dream Is Not For You. In this episode of Life After Ministry, Wade opens up about the moment Pastor Steven Furtick asked him to consider if he was willing to release what he was good at to embrace what God was calling him to be great at. Wade wrestled with letting go of his role as a worship leader—a dream he thought would last a lifetime—but in surrendering it, he discovered a deeper purpose.

This episode speaks directly to those in ministry transition and the decision-makers tasked with helping others move forward. We explore the often painful process of releasing control and trusting God with an unknown future. Wade’s story is an encouragement to anyone navigating the loss of a role, identity, or dream, helping you recognize that God may be writing a greater story, even when the one you’re living seems to be falling apart.

In this raw and honest conversation, Wade shares how embracing new dreams led him to a more fulfilling and joyful life, despite the fear and uncertainty along the way. From his pivotal conversation with Pastor Furtick to finding his calling beyond vocational ministry, Wade emphasizes that true peace and fulfillment often only come after we release our grip on our own plans and trust God with our whole lives. This episode is a must-listen for anyone facing ministry transitions, looking for hope and guidance as they step into the unknown.

Takeaways

• Letting go of our own dreams can open the door to God's greater plans for us.

• Ministry transitions, while painful, are often part of God's way of refining us and leading us into a new season of purpose.

• Trusting the guidance of leaders and God's timing can help us navigate through uncertainty and discover new callings.

• Our identity should not be defined by what we do (such as a job or ministry role), but by who we are in Christ.

• Calling is more about who we are becoming in Jesus than about a specific role or career path.

• Leadership transitions create opportunities for others to step into their God-given roles, making room for new growth in the church or organization.

• True peace and fulfillment often come only after we release our grip on our own plans and trust God with our entire lives.

• Developing a healthy inner world, focusing on our spiritual and emotional health, is essential for effective leadership and finding joy in new assignments.

Chapters

00:00 - Introduction and Welcome

00:38 - Wade’s Journey and the Story Behind the Book

04:15 - The Turning Point: Pastor Steven Furtick’s Challenge

06:10 - Wrestling with the Dream and Trusting Leadership

08:05 - Transitioning into New Roles and Calling

12:13 - Redefining Calling: Identity vs. Assignment

14:03 - Stepping Away from Elevation Church

17:31 - Finding Joy in Letting Go and Creating Space for Others

20:42 - True Peace and Fulfillment After Letting Go

25:13 - Wade’s Ministry Today: Coaching and The Joyful Leader Program

29:04 - Final Thoughts and Encouragement

Summary

It’s the reason we started the Life After Ministry podcast: the distressing experiences of leadership figures within the ministry who've faced the severe blow of unjust terminations or forced resignations. Join us as we explore this crucial topic with Dr. Matthew Tanner, founder of Wounded Leadership, an organization committed to offering restoration and healing for these traumatized leaders.

Starting from his personal experiences, Dr. Tanner equates the transformative journey of these leaders with the smelting process of metal: uncomfortable yet crucial for ultimately achieving fortitude and resilience. Emphasizing the importance of community support during this healing period, he not only confronts the issue of wounded leaders but strategizes preemptive measures to avoid such incidents.

Unveiling a structured four-step healing plan, Dr. Tanner discusses how such challenging experiences can lead to self-growth, reinforcing the necessity for self-care and constructing a stronger, more humble leader. Drawing from biblical instances, he provides comforting assurance that even revered religious figures have undergone similar struggles.

The conversation underlines the role of the church in supporting pastors during their leaving process and subsequently, its responsibility in providing substantial severance and counseling services. Dr. Tanner provides a comprehensive guide to managing forced resignations and unjustified terminations.

Dr. Tanner also introduces his book "The Wounded Pastor," along with details about an upcoming conference designed to aid pastors in dealing with challenging pastoral transitions. This episode is essential for anyone going through hard times within the ministry or facing their exit from it. Healing is on the horizon.

Takeaways

• Unjustified terminations of pastors are a significant problem in evangelical denominations, affecting tens of thousands of pastors each year.

• Pastors who have been forced out of ministry often face isolation and struggle to find support networks.

• Healing from the wounds of termination involves economic, emotional, spiritual, and leadership development processes.

• Churches should handle terminations with generosity and care, providing severance, counseling, and assistance in finding the next step.

Chapters

00:00 - Introduction and Background

01:02 - Personal Experience and Writing the Book

03:14 - Challenges and Questions in Ministry

05:37 - Extent of the Problem

07:05 - Isolation and the Need for Support

08:25 - Diversifying Relationships and Support Systems

09:23 - Balancing Personal and Church Relationships

11:45 - Transitioning from Pastor to Churchgoer

13:48 - Overcoming the Pastoral Mindset

14:46 - The Healing Journey for Wounded Pastors

19:51 - The Process of Termination and Wounding

22:23 - The Importance of Generosity and Care in Termination

26:18 - Promoting Healing through the Book and Conference

30:47 - Collaboration and Support for Wounded Pastors

In this episode, Gary Blackard, President and CEO of Adult & Teen Challenge USA, shares lessons from leading a national ministry, navigating leadership transitions, and helping people find hope in the midst of life's most difficult challenges.

From succession planning and organizational stewardship to addiction recovery and spiritual formation, Gary offers practical wisdom for leaders who want their influence to outlast their tenure.

• Succession planning is an act of stewardship, not a signal that leadership is ending.
• Leaders often avoid succession conversations because of fear, identity, or lack of self-awareness.
• Hope is a critical ingredient in personal transformation and lasting change.
• Healthy leadership begins with a strong private relationship with God.
• Legacy is protected when leaders intentionally prepare others to carry the mission forward.

00:00 Introduction and Gary's leadership journey

01:30 Transitioning into Adult & Teen Challenge leadership

04:20 The history and mission of Adult & Teen Challenge

09:40 Ministry leaders, addiction, and the importance of the private altar

12:00 Spiritual disciplines that sustain healthy leadership

15:20 Why hope matters during seasons of change

18:30 Facing the succession elephant

21:30 Why leaders avoid succession planning

27:00 Building a lasting leadership legacy

33:40 The Hope Within Reach podcast and helping families navigate addiction

37:00 Final thoughts and encouragement

Navigating a leadership transition or preparing for succession? Start a conversation with a specialist at Ministry Transitions. Listen to Hope Within Reach and learn more about Adult & Teen Challenge at Adult & Teen Challenge USA 

Summary

Tom Dyke shares his journey from ministry to starting his own business. He discusses his background in Manitoba, Canada, and his various roles in ministry, including being a youth pastor and overseeing family ministries. Tom initiated his departure from ministry due to challenges within the church and found a new calling in marketing and storytelling. He shares his financial success in his new business and challenges the poverty mindset often associated with pastors. Tom emphasizes the importance of family and creating lasting memories, and how his relationship with money has evolved. He also discusses how his pastoral skills continue to impact his interactions in the business world.

Takeaways

• There is life after ministry, and it can be fulfilling and successful.

• Transitioning from ministry to a new career or business requires adaptability and a willingness to learn new skills.

• Having a healthy relationship with money is important, and pastors should not feel guilty about financial success.

• Identifying and pursuing one's true calling and purpose can provide a sense of fulfillment and guide career decisions.

• Pastoral skills, such as building relationships and listening, can be valuable in various professional settings.

Chapters

• 00:00 Introduction and Background

• 01:11 Living in Manitoba, Canada

• 02:11 Roles in Ministry

• 04:33 Last Day in Ministry

• 08:47 Transition to Business

• 12:30 Financial Perspective and Relationship with Money

• 16:09 Calling and Purpose

• 20:01 Life After Ministry and Creating Memories

• 22:32 Incorporating Pastoral Skills in Business

• 27:01 Conclusion: Life After Ministry is Good

Thom Van Dycke fractional Chief Growth Officer for solopreneurs. After 19 years as a pastor, he launched his business at the height of the pandemic in 2020 and grew it to six figures in the first year. He believes that to truly engage with our ideal audience we need to leverage the power of storytelling.

Thom is married to Tara and they have 7 children. They are both advocates for foster and adoption and have welcomed 30 foster children into their home since 2011.

Connect with Thom at:

www.thomvandycke.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thom-van-dycke/

StoryBrand: https://marketingmadesimple.com/ThomVanDycke

Just mentioning "church hurt" will hit home for many of you. It’s baffling. The very place we'd expect to find solace and healing often turns out to be a source of deep wounds. If this resonates with you, you're not alone, and this episode is a must-listen.

Our guest, Shane McDonald, a licensed mental health counselor and former pastor, knows all too well what it's like to transition from serving in a ministry to a therapeutic setting. When he shared that a staggering 90% of his clients are dealing with some form of "church hurt," it was a wake-up call we couldn't ignore.

But here's where Shane left us hanging on every word: He draws a fine line between "hurt" and "injury," and that got us seriously pondering. It's not just about acknowledging the pain, it's about understanding its depth and impact on our spiritual and emotional health.

So, whether you've personally felt the sting of "church hurt" or you know someone who has, tune in to this intimate and insightful episode. Shane McDonald doesn't just expose the problem; he offers the kind of wisdom that can spark healing.

To learn more about the work and continued life after ministry of Shane McDonald, click here.

From navigating grief and burnout to finding new career paths and healing spiritually, this conversation sheds light on the complexities of pastoral life after ministry. They explore how churches can handle transitions with love, care, and intentionality, and they share hopeful stories of pastors finding new beginnings.

This episode isn’t just about transitions - it’s about reshaping the way we approach them in the church. Whether you’re a pastor in transition, a church leader, or someone supporting ministry workers, this discussion is packed with wisdom and practical takeaways.

• Pastors are often silent sufferers, facing immense personal and professional pressures with few healthy outlets.
• The average pastoral tenure is only 3.6 years, making healthy transitions a critical need for churches.
• Grieving and gaining are both essential parts of the transition process; pastors must address their emotional health to thrive in new roles.
• Churches can strengthen their culture by handling goodbyes with grace and care, rather than division and pain.
• Pastoral Transitions has cut the average transition time from 12-18 months to just 4-5 months by offering personalized support.
• Mental health awareness is growing in the church, but there’s still work to be done to normalize counseling for ministry leaders.

• 0:00 – Introduction: The purpose of Pastoral Transitions and 2024 reflections.
• 1:30 – Bill’s journey: How his heart has grown for pastors in transition.
• 2:35 – The ripple effects of pastoral challenges on families and ministries.
• 3:27 – Coaching pastors to rediscover God’s voice amid transition.
• 4:48 – Career concerns: Helping pastors identify transferable skills.
• 7:28 – Reducing transition time: From 12 months to under 5 months.
• 10:05 – The grieving and gaining process in pastoral transitions.
• 15:51 – The cultural impact of poorly handled transitions.
• 18:52 – Redefining work as ministry: Marketplace ministry opportunities.
• 23:31 – Growing impact: Changing how the church thinks about transitions.
• 31:18 – Building a healthy culture of succession in churches.
• 32:43 – A message of hope: God’s provision and healing during difficult times.
• 36:54 – How to support pastors in transition: Practical steps for churches and individuals.

Transitions are never easy, but they can be done with love, grace, and intentionality. Join the mission to help pastors and their families heal and find hope. Share this episode with your church leaders or friends in ministry, and consider supporting a pastor in transition by donating at pastoraltransitions.com/donate. Together, we can transform how the church handles change and bring restoration to the body of Christ.

In this episode, financial strategist Gabe Pelphrey opens the curtain on why retirement planning for ministry leaders so often gets ignored. He explains the unique challenges pastors face, the role boards must play, and the courageous conversations that make succession possible.

This isn’t just about money - it’s about stewardship, legacy, and ensuring both leaders and churches are prepared for what’s next.

Key Takeaways

• Why many pastors cannot financially afford to retire
• The board’s role in annual compensation and planning reviews
• How rabbi trusts and deferred compensation plans protect leaders and churches
• The danger of assuming “God will provide” without planning
• Why courageous conversations about money and succession matter
• How retrospective compensation studies address past underpayment
• Why planning early ensures dignity, security, and peace in transitions

Chapter Markers 00:00 – Welcome & Introductions 01:20 – The hidden financial crisis in pastoral transitions 03:45 – Who holds responsibility: pastor or board? 06:15 – When pastors retire into poverty 08:00 – Unique financial tools for churches (rabbi trusts, 403b9s) 10:13 – Stewardship and courageous conversations 13:27 – Strongholds around money in ministry 16:40 – Poverty mindset vs. extravagant misconceptions 20:06 – Retrospective compensation studies explained 22:53 – Gabe’s background and calling into this work 25:06 – How Stewarded serves churches and nonprofits 27:00 – Why Ministry Transitions + Stewarded work hand-in-hand 32:29 – Preview of joint webinar

Retirement should not punish calling. Visit stewarded.io to schedule a strategy session. Build a clear roadmap with your board using tools like 403(b)(9) plans, rabbi trusts, deferred compensation, and retrospective compensation studies so your pastor can finish with dignity and your church stays strong.

If succession or a financial crunch is on the horizon, do not walk it alone. Go to ministrytransitions.com to book a confidential call. We help pastors and boards craft integrity-first transition plans that protect people, steward resources, and prepare your church for what’s next.

Platforms grow. Expectations rise. Applause becomes affirmation. And before long, influence begins to shape identity.

Eric Reid spent years traveling the world teaching leadership alongside John Maxwell. From the outside, it looked like success. But internally, Eric began to notice a troubling pattern. 

Leadership had become a performance, a way to earn approval rather than simply serve people.

In this conversation with Matt Davis, Eric reflects on the personal awakening that led him to write Leadership Was Never My Calling. 

Together they unpack the deep tensions many leaders carry: the pull toward platform, the pressure to perform, and the quiet invitation of Jesus to step down the ladder and serve with humility.

• Leadership can easily become a hiding place for insecurity and identity wounds • Applause and affirmation can become addictive forms of validation • Performance and presence are very different ways of leading • Many leaders carry unresolved father wounds that shape how they pursue influence • Small, unseen acts of faithfulness often carry the greatest kingdom impact • True Christlike leadership begins at the bottom of the ladder, not the top • Freedom comes when leaders shift from building influence to serving people

00:00 – Introducing Eric Reid and the question of calling 02:00 – The origin of the book Leadership Was Never My Calling 05:20 – Performance versus presence in ministry leadership 08:30 – The addiction to applause and approval 11:20 – Father wounds and identity in leadership 16:00 – Navigating significance while remaining faithful 19:50 – The power of small, unseen acts of service 23:20 – Surrendering career outcomes to God 26:40 – When leaders feel their best years are behind them 28:30 – Why stepping down the ladder leads to freedom

If you’re navigating a ministry transition or wrestling with what comes next, visit https://ministrytransitions.com to explore confidential coaching and support. You can also learn more about Eric Reid and his upcoming book at https://lwnc.net.

For Tami Heim, the journey into leadership began with a dramatic shift in ambition. Just days after graduating college, she surrendered her plans to follow Christ, stepping into a life where leadership was no longer about advancement but obedience.

Over the next several decades, that calling would lead her through massive corporate change, cultural disruption, and deeply personal trials. 

From navigating retail mergers during the rise of Amazon to leading during national crises and personal loss, each moment shaped how she understands faith, leadership, and God’s faithfulness.

Today, as president and CEO of the Christian Leadership Alliance, Tami helps equip leaders across more than 125 countries. 

In this conversation, she shares how leaders can seek God in uncertainty, navigate disruption, and lead with both competence and spiritual depth.

This episode is an invitation to rediscover leadership as an adventure with God rather than a platform to control.

• Leadership growth often comes through disruption and difficulty, not comfort
• God’s faithfulness becomes clearer after walking through multiple seasons of crisis
• Spiritual formation is just as critical as leadership competency
• Healthy leadership requires wise guides, side guides, and gospel community
• Seeking God together as a team can transform how organizations navigate uncertainty
• Identity must remain rooted in Christ rather than in leadership roles
• Strong leadership transitions require trust in God’s timing and openness to what comes next

00:00 — Introduction to Tami Heim 02:08 — Management, stewardship, and leadership 04:42 — Being saved from personal ambition 07:06 — Business as ministry before it was common 09:57 — The role of Christian community in leadership 12:09 — Leading through crisis and disruption 14:19 — Navigating 9/11 and national uncertainty 16:44 — When COVID threatened the future of CLA 18:45 — Leadership during seasons of transition 20:21 — Seeking God first as an organization 23:10 — Identity beyond leadership roles 26:25 — Multiply, not divide 30:55 — The ache of ministry leaders 33:44 — What makes the Outcomes Conference unique 37:31 — Leadership, presence, and meaningful conversations 40:02 — Final invitation to Outcomes Conference

If you or your organization are facing a leadership transition, succession conversation, or difficult ministry change, visit https://ministrytransitions.com to learn how Ministry Transitions helps churches and nonprofits protect people, preserve mission, and plan what comes next. 

You can also explore more about the Christian Leadership Alliance and the Outcomes Conference at https://outcomesconference.org. These resources exist to help leaders finish strong and step confidently into whatever God has next.

Thanks for listening to the Life After Ministry podcast.

In this episode, attorney and former ministry leader John Melcon explains how churches and nonprofits can handle staff transitions without abandoning their values or ignoring real risks.

John shares his own sudden exit from a director role in Christian higher education and how that season led him to serve ministries as legal counsel. 

He outlines why U.S. courts often take a hands-off approach to religious leadership disputes, what that means for pastors and boards, and how to prepare before conflict ever arises.

From “talk about your last day on your first day” to using Christian conciliation instead of civil court, this conversation offers a road map: clarity in writing, compassion in tone, and a process that keeps the mission central.

Key Takeaways

• Mission and values - not fear - should drive personnel policy and decisions.
• U.S. law generally avoids entangling courts in religious leadership disputes; plan accordingly.
• Written agreements can be precise and pastoral when drafted with mutual dignity in mind.
• Succession planning is discipleship: normalize timelines and transitions early.
• Consider mutual confidentiality/non-disparagement; avoid clauses that suppress lawful reporting.
• Use Christian conciliation for disputes when both parties voluntarily opt in.
• Involve counsel early - clarity at formation prevents costly confusion at separation.

Chapter Markers

• 00:00 — Welcome, the tension of boss and brother
• 02:54 — John’s ministry background and unexpected termination
• 08:55 — Discernment, law school, and a new calling
• 12:51 — “Lawyers aren’t the enemy” and the advisor model
• 16:07 — How religious liberty shapes ministry employment
• 23:43 — Loyalty, performance, and ending well
• 28:49 — Clarity at the start: contracts, bylaws, expectations
• 32:56 — Christian conciliation vs. civil court
• 37:36 — NDAs, confidentiality, and what’s wise now
• 41:43 — Culture signals: how we say goodbye

   

   

   

When ministry transitions go wrong, the fallout isn’t just legal - it’s spiritual. Ministry Transitions walks with pastors and ministry leaders through seasons of loss and change with clarity, care, and purpose. Start your next chapter at ministrytransitions.com.

And when wise legal counsel is needed, John Melcon brings both legal expertise and a ministry heart. Learn more about his work serving churches and nonprofits at taftlaw.com/people/john-terry-melcon/.

But deep down, we know something’s wrong.

In this episode of Life After Ministry, Matt Davis sits down with his longtime friend Andrew Hartman to talk about what happens when time becomes our boss. Andrew shares how his own burnout - marked by real physical breakdown - became the turning point that changed his relationship with time and work forever.

This isn’t a conversation about calendars or to-do lists. It’s about trust, limits, and the grace of learning how to stop before it’s too late. For anyone in ministry who’s running on empty, this one might be preventative - so you never have to live life after ministry.

• Being busy for God is not the same as being faithful to Him.
• Stress isn’t proof of calling; it’s often a signal of fear or misplaced trust.
• Burnout is your body’s declaration of bankruptcy - an invitation to reorganize your life.
• Ministry culture often rewards overwork, but Jesus modeled a rhythm of rest and presence.
• True stewardship includes managing time as a sacred resource, not an endless debt.
• Building trust with time begins by creating small, consistent commitment plans.
• You don’t have to burn out to be fruitful. The work of God is sustained by the peace of God.

• 00:00 – Matt and Andrew reconnect after 20 years
• 01:43 – When “busy for God” became burnout
• 05:18 – The body declares bankruptcy on stress
• 07:03 – Solving the time problem
• 09:21 – Is burnout a failure or a signal?
• 13:52 – Fear, faith, and our emotional relationship with time
• 17:24 – How “commitment plans” build peace
• 19:10 – Leading others in stewardship of time
• 23:48 – What life looks like on the other side of burnout
• 26:33 – Teams that heal their pace together

• Learn more, donate, or schedule a confidential transition call at MinistryTransitions.com
• Explore Andrew Hartman’s resources - free masterclass, coaching, and tools - at TimeBoss.us

When everything you built - your family, your future, your faith - feels like it’s slipping through your fingers?

Bryan Elliott knows suffering intimately. 

A tragic accident left his brother in a vegetative state. 

Addiction nearly destroyed his daughters. 

A brutal murder stole one of them forever. 

His businesses collapsed. 

His marriages unraveled. 

His world should have crushed him.

But it didn’t.

Instead, Bryan woke up the morning after his daughter's murder with something that made no sense: peace. 

Not numbness. 

Not denial. 

Actual, undeniable peace. 

And then, something even crazier - joy.

How?

This episode of Life After Ministry goes deep into the mystery of suffering, not as something to survive, but as something that transforms. 

Bryan doesn’t just talk about enduring pain - he talks about what it means to co-suffer with Christ, to find God in the darkest pit, and to come out on the other side more alive than ever. 

If you’ve ever walked through a season where God felt absent - where the wilderness stretched on too long and the heartbreak felt too heavy - this is the episode you need to hear.

Because maybe, just maybe, your suffering isn’t the end of the story. Maybe it’s the beginning of something bigger than you ever expected.

• Why suffering is not just something to endure, but something God uses to transform us.
• The kingdom principle of co-suffering with Christ and how it leads to co-glorification.
• How to recognize God’s presence in the darkest seasons, even when He feels silent.
• Why suffering is an accelerant in spiritual growth and how it prepares us for what’s next.
• The role of grief, loss, and pain in shaping our faith and revealing God’s goodness.
• How Bryan’s story of unimaginable suffering led to an unshakable trust in God’s sovereignty.

00:10 | Welcome & Bryan’s background 01:15 | A tragic accident that unraveled his family 07:31 | When life keeps taking - divorce, addiction, business collapse 16:23 | The moment Bryan’s daughter was murdered 17:06 | Waking up with peace - and why it didn’t make sense 20:54 | Why suffering is an accelerant, not an obstacle 26:22 | What we’re missing about suffering as believers 33:42 | Encouragement for those walking through suffering 40:51 | How to move forward and trust God in the process

If you’re walking through a season of suffering, you don’t have to navigate it alone. 

We’re giving away 14 copies of Bryan’s book, As In Heaven, for free. Be one of the first 14 people to email talk@pastoraltransitions.com, and we’ll send you a copy.

Want more resources on navigating life after ministry? Visit PastoralTransitions.com for guides, support, and practical help to walk through this season with clarity and hope.

To dive deeper into Bryan's ministry and find more resources on healing, restoration, and kingdom living, visit M46Ministries.com.

This is one of the most raw, gut-honest conversations we’ve ever had. Listen now, and let it reshape how you see suffering.

Brian Fisher doesn’t hold back as he has done a deep dive on how there is something missing in the church experience: a failure to address the deeper stages of discipleship.

Drawing from his own journey through loss, reflection, and rebuilding, Brian shares his vision for a radically different approach: smaller, intimate communities focused on spiritual formation instead of surface-level engagement.

In this episode, Brian and Matt discuss how “the wall” in the discipleship journey forces us to confront our brokenness and deepen our relationship with Christ.

And Brian introduces the Soil & Roots concept of “Greenhouses,” spaces designed to cultivate deep spiritual growth, and how they differ from traditional small groups.

For anyone longing to go beyond the basics of faith, this episode is a must-listen.

• The Wall and Wilderness: Moving through disorientation is painful, but it’s necessary for deeper growth in Christ.
• Reimagining Discipleship: The first three stages of faith - knowing, learning, and serving - are just the beginning. True transformation happens in stages four, five, and six.
• The Greenhouse Model: Unlike most small groups, greenhouses foster safety, intimacy, and authentic wrestling with God’s truths.
• The Church’s Blind Spot: Modern church structures often focus on attracting crowds but neglect the messy, time-consuming work of deep spiritual formation.
• Hope After Ministry: Brian’s story shows there is life and ministry after vocational leadership - if we’re willing to redefine success on God’s terms.

• "Churches are great at making converts but struggle to make disciples who think, act, and love like Jesus."
• "True spiritual formation happens in the wilderness, not in the crowd."
• "The church should grow smaller, not bigger, if we want to see real transformation."
• "The wall isn’t a punishment - it’s an invitation into God’s deeper love."

• 0:00 – 2:02: The Church’s Failure in Stages Four, Five, and Six of Discipleship
• 2:03 – 5:35: What Is a Greenhouse? Introducing the Model for Deep Spiritual Growth
• 5:36 – 8:29: Why Most Small Groups Aren’t Enough for Real Formation
• 8:30 – 10:49: The Power Struggles in Church Institutions and Why They Resist Change
• 10:50 – 13:37: Wrestling with Faith: The Importance of Vulnerability in Community
• 13:38 – 15:46: Gratitude for the Wilderness: Finding Joy in Suffering
• 15:47 – 19:52: Dredging the Depths: Removing Debris to Create New Life
• 19:53 – 22:38: Becoming Deeper People: Awake to God, Others, Ourselves, and Creation
• 22:39 – 24:54: Inviting People Into the Deep End of Discipleship
• 24:55 – 26:54: Connecting with Soil and Roots

Brian’s insights challenge us to rethink what it means to truly follow Jesus. Whether you’re longing for deeper community, wrestling with your faith, or navigating a wilderness season, this episode provides hope and practical guidance.

• Website: SoilandRoots.org
• Podcast: Soil and Roots (Available on all platforms)
• Substack: Search Soil and Roots for in-depth articles on discipleship

This is part two of Brian’s story. Together with part one, it paints a compelling vision for what the church could become if we embraced the call to deeper discipleship.

Imagine standing at the pulpit after your last sermon, knowing it's not just the end of a service, but the end of your ministry journey at that church. What happens next?

In this episode of Life After Ministry, Matt Davis sits down with Matt McGee, founder of The Last Service Podcast, to explore the difficult transitions pastors face when they step away from ministry. Whether it's through burnout, church closure, or simply moving into a new season, Matt McGee has seen firsthand the emotional toll and the challenges that follow.

This episode tackles the question, "Is there life after ministry?" with a powerful reminder that ministry doesn’t end with a job title.

1. You Are Not a Failure: Leaving ministry - whether through a church closure or a transition—does not define your worth or calling.
2. Find Community After Ministry: Pastors must actively seek support, guidance, and pastoral care when leaving ministry to avoid isolation and burnout.
3. Reshaping Ministry: Ministry is not confined to church walls; it can happen anywhere - whether teaching in a school or simply being present for someone in need.
4. The Pain of Transition: Both pastors and their families carry deep emotional scars during church transitions, but acknowledging and processing these feelings is key to healing.
5. Proactive Pastoral Care: Churches should plan for pastoral transitions with intentionality, bringing in help and creating space for joy and healing, rather than letting the process turn solely into a business decision.

1. "You're not a failure. Mistakes happen, but they don’t define the Spirit of God or your calling."
2. "We are believers in resurrection, and just like death brings new life, leaving ministry can lead to new beginnings."
3. "Ministry isn't about the pulpit - it’s about being a godly influence wherever you are, whether that’s teaching at a school or working at Burger King."

• [00:00] Introduction – Matt Davis introduces Matt McGee and the conversation begins with ministry transitions.
• [00:50] Early Ministry Calling – Matt McGee shares his journey into ministry and how God led him to serve in the church.
• [06:18] Transitioning Out – Matt McGee describes the internal and external factors that led to his departure from church ministry.
• [11:23] The Breaking Point – A difficult leadership dynamic and unaligned values lead Matt to a crucial conversation with his pastor.
• [14:59] Aftermath of Leaving Ministry – Matt shares the emotional and practical challenges his family faced after his sudden departure.
• [19:16] Community Support Post-Ministry – How Matt's church community responded after he left, and the importance of maintaining healthy relationships.
• [21:30] Returning to Teaching as Ministry – Matt’s journey back into education, this time with a renewed sense of calling and mission.
• [25:29] Redefining Ministry – How stepping outside church walls changed Matt's perspective on ministry and service.
• [29:56] Last Service Podcast – The inspiration behind Matt McGee’s Last Service Podcast, which explores church closures and transitions.
• [33:42] The Importance of Pastoral Care in Transitions – How church leaders can approach closures with care and attention to the emotional needs of their congregation.
• [36:58] Encouragement for Pastors in Transition – Matt offers words of wisdom for pastors facing their final service, reminding them they are not failures.
• [42:06] Conclusion – Matt McGee shares where listeners can find The Last Service Podcast and other resources.

Years later, as the CEO of a global nonprofit, he faced a different kind of pressure - leading an organization, carrying the weight of a mission, and pushing through exhaustion. 

But this time, the gun wasn’t in someone else’s hands. It was the slow, creeping pressure of burnout, and it was just as dangerous.

In this episode, Bill shares how he went from being a leader on the brink to discovering the power of interruption. 

He unpacks why so many pastors and ministry leaders are running on empty, why stepping away feels impossible, and how his sabbatical at a silent monastery changed everything.

Burnout isn’t a badge of honor - it’s a warning sign. If you feel the weight of ministry pressing down on you, this conversation is your lifeline.

• Burnout doesn’t happen overnight. It’s a slow fade, and most leaders don’t see it coming until they’re in crisis.
• Control is an illusion. Whether it’s holding onto leadership or refusing to step away, the tighter your grip, the heavier the burden.
• Interruption is a choice - disruption is a consequence. If you don’t make space for rest, your body, mind, or ministry will force the issue.
• A sabbatical isn’t selfish - it’s survival. Leaders who take time to step away don’t weaken their ministries - they strengthen them.
• The church must do better. If you're a board member or elder, don’t wait for your pastor to break - give them space to breathe.

• [00:10] - Welcome & Bill Simmons’ Story: From Missionary Kid to CEO
• [03:14] - Held at Gunpoint - What a Child Soldier Taught Me About Control
• [06:25] - The Burnout Epidemic: Why 8.5/10 Leaders Are Near Collapse
• [09:55] - The Moment Everything Broke - And Why Bill Took a Sabbatical
• [14:44] - Shabbat, Ceasing, & The Myth of Rest
• [19:09] - The Power of Pause, Psalm, and Prayer
• [24:59] - Leaders Don’t Have to Manufacture Spiritual Life - Just Make Space
• [28:41] - Interruption vs. Disruption: What Happens When You Ignore the Signs
• [32:11] - How to Sabbath Without Making It Just Another Task
• [36:46] - The Way of Interruption - Bill’s Book & Why It Matters

The weight of leadership isn’t yours to carry alone.

• Read Bill Simmons’ book, The Way of Interruption, and learn how to embrace spiritual pause before burnout takes over. Order your copy now: Get the book here
• Need help navigating a transition? Whether you're stepping away from ministry or trying to find a healthier rhythm, Pastoral Transitions can help. Visit pastoraltransitions.com to start the conversation.

What happens when a pastor knows it’s time to pass the baton?

How do you handle transitions with grace, humility, and purpose?

As we kick off this episode and a new season of Life After Ministry, we dive deep into these questions with none other than Gene Getz - a man who pastored for decades and transitioned out in a way that continues to inspire. Gene, now 92, shares his incredible journey of ministry, church planting, and leadership, revealing how he successfully handed over his thriving megachurch to the next generation.

His story is one of humility, foresight, and the importance of building a strong team, emphasizing that true leadership is knowing when and how to let go.

This conversation is a masterclass in succession planning and next steps - offering insights not just for pastors but for anyone leading an organization. Gene’s wisdom shines as he discusses the importance of surrounding yourself with godly people, recognizing when someone else is ready to lead, and the challenges of balancing ego with responsibility.

Whether you’re a pastor facing transition or simply curious about the behind-the-scenes struggles of leadership, this episode offers hope that there is indeed life after ministry, and ministry after ministry.

Takeaways

• Ministry can involve layered and textured conversations that leave a lasting impact.
• Life After Ministry aims to provide hope and encouragement to those transitioning out of ministry or facing tough seasons.
• Gene Getz's journey into ministry was shaped by his upbringing, his experience at Moody Bible Institute, and the influence of a supportive professor.
• Getz's approach to ministry involved team leadership and building a support system of godly men and their wives.
• Succession planning and passing the baton in ministry require humility, open communication, and a focus on the future of the organization.

Chapters

Summary

Clayton Stenson shares his journey of transitioning from ministry to a new career and finding hope and purpose in life after ministry. He discusses his background in ministry, the challenges he faced, and the support he received during a difficult time of grief and loss. Clayton also highlights the transferable skills he gained from his ministry experience and how they have helped him succeed in his current role. He encourages others who are going through similar transitions to seek support and embrace new opportunities.

Takeaways

• Transitioning from ministry to a new career can be challenging but also rewarding.

• Grief and loss can have a significant impact on one's life and ministry.

• Transferable skills gained from ministry, such as leadership, vision casting, and building systems, can be valuable in other professions.

• Finding support and community during times of transition is crucial for healing and growth.

Chapters

• 00:00 Introduction and Background

• 03:37 Entering Ministry

• 08:25 Leaving Ministry

• 12:11 Transitioning to a New Career

• 18:11 Transferable Skills from Ministry

• 21:30 Identity and Perspective

• 23:42 Encouragement and Hope

• 24:31 Reaching Out for Support

• 25:23 Conclusion

Clayton Stenson is an innovator in the business coaching space. He is a former Pastor who made the shift to the marketplace 8 years ago. An operations expert, Clayton works with faith-driven construction and trades companies with $5-15 million in revenue that have hit a ceiling. He comes alongside the visionary owner and their leadership team to help them make their vision a reality. Often these visionaries are frustrated, tired, and are feeling discouraged that their business may never be able to run without them. They usually have made some progress toward this goal, but they need some help to get over the hump. Clayton helps them either through coaching or through fractional services.

Clayton has also developed a powerful program to help visionaries and their second-in-commands find unity and leverage their opposite skill sets to develop the company that they dream of. The two of them have an incredible opportunity to work together, but because they are so different, they can have a hard time getting and staying on the same page. Clayton's Unity Rock Program is proven to get the most out of their Visionary/Second-in-Command relationship.

Connect with Clayton at:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/theunityguide/

Learn more about the great work Jeremy Stalnecker is doing through the Mighty Oaks Foundation by going to: https://www.mightyoaksprograms.org/

Imagine coming home from leading Marines on the battlefield in Iraq, only to feel lost and frustrated while trying to get church volunteers to clean a bathroom.

The intensity and mission-driven focus of war collide with the quieter challenges of ministry life in ways that can lead to emotional turmoil.

In this episode of Life After Ministry, Matt Davis sits down with Jeremy Stalnecker, a former Marine officer turned pastor, to discuss how transitioning out of the military and into ministry nearly destroyed him.

Jeremy shares how misaligned expectations, hidden trauma, and identity loss can derail even the most driven leaders - and how a balance of grace, truth, and time helped him navigate those life-altering transitions. Together, they explore how to rediscover purpose, even when life feels like it's falling apart.

1. Identity Shift: Transitioning from military life to ministry was overwhelming for Jeremy, revealing how tied his identity was to his role in the Marines.
2. Lack of Intensity in Church Ministry: The shift from the high-stakes environment of the military to the slower pace of church life left Jeremy feeling frustrated and disconnected from the mission.
3. The Power of Honest Confrontation: A pivotal moment came when Jeremy's pastor confronted him about his behavior, helping him realize that the problem started within, not with external circumstances.
4. Seeking Guidance: Transition requires mentorship and guidance from those who’ve walked the path before - a crucial element Jeremy wished he had during his shift from the Marines to ministry.
5. Ministry Beyond the Church Walls: Jeremy's work with Mighty Oaks Foundation demonstrates how ministry can thrive outside the church setting, helping veterans and first responders find healing through faith.

1. "Everything I had ever wanted to be a part of, I had done - and then I was leading church staff meetings, trying to wrangle volunteers. It was a whole different world."
2. "The reasons for your behavior may be valid, but they’re not excuses. You can’t justify the way you're acting, no matter what you’ve been through."
3. "Your calling may change locations, but the gifts God gives you are without repentance - they’ll follow you wherever you go."

• [00:00] Introduction – Matt Davis welcomes Jeremy Stalnecker, discussing the transitions from military service to ministry.
• [00:15] Military Service and the Iraq War – Jeremy recounts his time as a Marine officer and his experience during Operation Iraqi Freedom.
• [02:15] Transition from the Marines to Ministry – Jeremy describes the challenge of shifting from combat to church staff life, feeling out of place and frustrated.
• [06:46] The Struggle in Ministry – The tension between military urgency and church work led to anger and personal turmoil, both at home and in church staff meetings.
• [09:55] Confrontation with the Pastor – Jeremy's pastor confronts him about his behavior, offering both support and a challenge to change.
• [12:15] Turning Point – A key turning point where Jeremy takes time off to reflect and begins to recognize the internal issues driving his actions.
• [14:27] Becoming a Senior Pastor – Jeremy transitions into a senior pastor role, facing new challenges and personal growth in the process.
• [15:55] Moving from Senior Pastor to Mighty Oaks Foundation – Jeremy shares how he transitioned into his current role at Mighty Oaks, blending his military and ministry backgrounds.
• [18:34] Navigating a Smooth Transition – Practical advice on how Jeremy managed his transition out of pastoral ministry into nonprofit leadership.
• [21:22] Ministry in Mighty Oaks Foundation – Jeremy explains how Mighty Oaks helps veterans and first responders heal through faith and how his pastoral skills apply in his current role.
• [24:49] Pastoring Beyond the Church – Discussing the concept of pastoring as a role, not just a title, and how Jeremy continues to pastor in a different capacity.
• [28:40] How to Connect with Mighty Oaks – Jeremy shares where to find more information on Mighty Oaks and how to get involved or refer someone in need of help.

Together, we explore how great leaders don’t leave culture to chance - they build it with clarity and intention.

Jenni shares her personal journey from working in the record industry to executive church leadership and why culture became her passion. She opens up about her “aha moment” of realizing how deeply culture shapes our experiences and why neglecting it can derail even the best ministries. 

Whether you’re a leader navigating toxic environments or simply trying to build a team that flourishes, this conversation delivers wisdom and practical tools to take your culture to the next level.

• Great culture doesn’t happen by accident: It takes a clear vision and deliberate effort.
• Why leaders often miss the mark: Without clarity, teams are left guessing - and disengaged.
• Staff transitions matter more than you think: How we say goodbye impacts the whole team’s trust and morale.
• Culture as stewardship: Healthy staff culture is the foundation for effective ministry.

• 0:00 - Welcome and intro to Jenni Catron
• 3:00 - Jenni’s journey: from music exec to church leader to culture coach
• 9:00 - What makes or breaks culture? Defining the “how” behind teamwork
• 18:00 - Conquering resistance: Leading through change with patience and clarity
• 30:00 - Staff transitions: The culture-shaping moments we often overlook
• 45:00 - Behind Jenni’s book Culture Matters and what’s next

Are you ready to build a culture that inspires your team and fuels your ministry? Don’t leave it to chance - start taking intentional steps today.

Join Jenni Catron and other incredible speakers at the free Culture Matters Summit. Register now at culturemattersummit.com. Explore Jenni’s new book, Culture Matters, and access tools to lead with clarity at get4sight.com/.

For more resources on making your staff transitions as graceful as your ministry, visit Pastoral Transitions. Let’s transform how we lead, together.

In this episode of Life After Ministry, Chris Adams, Executive Director of Flourishing in Ministry, takes us deep into the heart of one of the biggest challenges pastors face today—burnout. With pastors feeling pulled in every direction, post-pandemic pressures, political polarization, and toxic church dynamics, how can they stay healthy and truly flourish? Chris shares his own background as a third-generation pastor and how he was inspired to care for those serving in ministry, especially after witnessing his grandfather's ministry burnout. Together, we unpack the emotional weight pastors carry and how Chris's work is helping pastors find real, tangible ways to prevent burnout, restore balance, and thrive, even when their ministries are struggling.

1. "You can be so right, you're wrong. There’s a lot of that happening today."

2. "Burnout sneaks up on pastors. By the time they realize it, the damage is done."

3. "Pastors need to play. A little bit of fun, even 20-30 minutes a week, can make a huge difference."

• Burnout sneaks up: Most pastors are unaware they’re burning out until it reaches a critical level. Early warning signs must be recognized.

• Self-regulation is essential: Pastors are constantly exposed to toxic behavior and emotional stress. They need skills to process and release those burdens.

• Playtime is necessary: Even a small amount of leisure time can rejuvenate mental and physical health and contribute to long-term well-being.

• Daily rhythms matter: Pastors should practice simple daily wellness routines, like a 5-minute pause or a 15-minute walk, to maintain resilience.

• Flourishing despite hardship: A pastor’s ministry doesn’t need to be thriving for them to personally flourish; redefining success can lead to true fulfillment.

00:00 - Introduction and Chris's Ministry Background 02:30 - The "Clergy-Killing" Churches and Why Chris Stayed in Ministry 04:50 - The Current Health of Clergy in America 07:15 - Navigating Polarization and Flourishing Amidst Conflict 10:00 - The Daily Well-being of Pastors 12:30 - Importance of Contemplative Practices and Play 16:30 - Flourishing in Ministry Even When Ministry Isn’t Flourishing 19:40 - The Research Behind Burnout in Ministry 22:30 - Indicators of When to Consider Stepping Away from Ministry 26:20 - How Flourishing in Ministry is Helping Pastors

Imagine being just weeks away from your wedding and finding out through a third party that you've been fired from your church. This is exactly what happened to Wes Gay.

In this episode of Life After Ministry, host Matt Davis and guest Wes Gay dive into the difficult transitions from church ministry to marketplace success.

Together, they explore what it means to be forced out of a role you thought defined you, and how to build a thriving career outside the church while using the same skills honed in ministry.

1. Unlearning Church Culture: Transitioning from ministry to the marketplace often requires unlearning assumptions about money, leadership, and success.
2. Transferable Skills: Skills developed in ministry - like empathy, communication, and leadership - are highly valuable in other sectors, including sales and business development.
3. Navigating Identity Crisis: Being a pastor may feel like your entire identity, but it’s an assignment, not who you are at the core.
4. Financial Freedom Is Not Shameful: Christians need to rethink the role of money in their lives. Financial success can be a tool for greater impact and service to others.
5. Practical Transition Advice: Start building a portfolio or exploring new opportunities before a crisis forces you into change.

1. "You are not your job title, and leaving ministry doesn’t mean you stop doing ministry."
2. "The skills you develop in ministry - leading, teaching, and caring for people - are incredibly valuable in the business world."
3. "For Christians, making more money isn’t evil - it’s a tool that can create more opportunities for impact."

• [00:00] Introduction – Matt Davis introduces Wes Gay and recounts their first meeting during Matt’s early StoryBrand journey.
• [02:52] Fired From Ministry – Wes shares his story of being unexpectedly fired just weeks before his wedding.
• [06:18] Repeated Job Loss – Wes explains the pattern of being let go from multiple ministry roles and its emotional toll.
• [08:26] Deciding to Leave Ministry – Wes describes his turning point in deciding not to return to ministry, despite applying for numerous church roles.
• [11:36] Unlearning Ministry Culture – Wes shares what he had to unlearn from church culture to succeed in the marketplace, including assumptions about money and leadership.
• [14:25] Identity, Assignment, Calling – Matt and Wes discuss the framework of identity, assignment, and calling, and how to navigate transitions with these in mind.
• [17:17] How Ministry Prepared Wes for Business – Wes discusses how his experience in ministry helped him transition into StoryBrand and the marketplace.
• [21:54] Transferable Skills – Matt and Wes explore the transferable skills pastors can bring into the marketplace, including communication and empathy.
• [24:58] Christians and Financial Success – A discussion on why financial success is not something Christians should feel guilty about.
• [28:07] Using Pastoral Skills in the Marketplace – Wes reflects on how his pastoral skills continue to influence his business relationships and how they’re still a form of ministry.
• [31:45] How to Communicate Clearly as a Church – Wes provides practical advice for churches on dropping the jargon and communicating clearly with their congregation.
• [37:40] Closing and Contact Info – Wes shares how listeners can connect with him for marketing advice or transition coaching.

In Episode 34 of Life After Ministry, Dennis Allen, author of The Disciple Dilemma, shares his journey from a military and corporate background to addressing one of the most significant crises in the church today: the failure of discipleship. Dennis discusses how the church has shifted from making disciples to prioritizing institutional success, leading to widespread disengagement, de-churching, and a broken model of ministry. Drawing on his leadership experience, Dennis explains how churches can refocus on their true mission—making disciples who make disciples.

This episode is crucial for ministry leaders, decision-makers, and anyone grappling with the challenges of church leadership in today’s complex landscape. Dennis offers deep insights into how discipleship can transform churches, reduce pastor burnout, and create lasting impact in the lives of congregations. His message is a wake-up call to rethink the church's mission and rediscover the biblical model of discipleship.

Join us as we dive into practical solutions for reviving discipleship in the church and hear Dennis' heartfelt encouragement to pastors who have transitioned out of ministry, reminding them that their identity is not lost—there is still hope and purpose beyond the pulpit.

Takeaways

• The modern church has shifted from making disciples to focusing on institutional growth, leading to disengagement and the rise of the "de-churched."

• True discipleship is a life-on-life process, not something that can be achieved through programs or one-size-fits-all approaches.

• Pastors are often burdened with unrealistic expectations, leading to burnout and a broken leadership model in many churches.

• Churches need to rediscover their biblical mission: making disciples who make disciples, which starts with leadership modeling the way.

• Even after leaving vocational ministry, pastors can still fulfill their purpose by walking alongside others in discipleship, finding renewed hope and identity.

Chapters

00:00 - Introduction and Welcome

00:20 - Dennis Allen’s Journey from Military and Corporate to Ministry

02:21 - Early Mentorship and the Biblical Model of Discipleship

04:30 - The Symptoms of the Discipleship Crisis in the Church

05:01 - The Rise of the "Nones," "Dones," and the De-Churched

07:24 - The Impact of COVID on Church Engagement

08:59 - Institutional Problems in the Church and the Burden on Pastors

11:52 - The Biblical Discipleship Model: Bet Sefer, Bet Midrash, Bet Talmud

14:09 - Implementing Real Discipleship in the Modern Church

17:03 - The Burden of the "Sunday Show" and Outsourcing Spiritual Responsibility

18:32 - Similarities Between Broken Churches and Broken Corporations

20:51 - Reclaiming the Church’s True Mission and Identity

23:03 - The Challenge of Discipleship in a Culture of Instant Gratification

24:45 - Overview of The Disciple Dilemma and Its Goals

26:04 - Encouragement for Pastors Transitioning Out of Ministry

27:30 - Closing Remarks and How to Connect with Dennis Allen

Drew Hensley calls it “invisible grief.” It’s the pain of unrealized hopes, whether that’s infertility, singleness, unmet expectations, or a future you were certain God was leading you toward. 

And because it’s unseen, it often gets buried under responsibility, performance, and the pressure to keep showing up.

In this conversation, Drew shares his personal journey through infertility while pastoring, the unhealthy ways he coped, and the turning point that led him toward honesty, lament, and healing. 

This episode offers a grounded, honest look at how to carry grief without losing your faith.

• Invisible grief is the pain of what has never been and may never be
• Ministry leaders often carry grief privately while serving others publicly
• Avoiding grief doesn’t silence it. It reshapes how it shows up
• Lament is a necessary spiritual practice, not a lack of faith
• Joy and grief are not opposites. They can coexist
• Healing begins with honesty, first with God, then with others
• The church grows stronger when it learns to sit with people in unresolved pain

00:00 – Introduction to Invisible Grief 02:00 – Defining grief that no one sees 05:00 – Drew’s infertility story begins 08:30 – The weight of grief in ministry leadership 12:00 – Coping, numbing, and emotional exhaustion 17:30 – The turning point: honesty with God 20:30 – Why joy and grief are not opposites 26:30 – A framework: lay down, pick up, move forward 30:00 – Adoption, redemption, and unresolved tension 33:00 – Is the church good at grief? 37:00 – Final reflections on trust and faith

If you’re navigating a difficult transition, you don’t have to do it alone. Visit https://ministrytransitions.com to book a confidential call, support leaders in transition, or find guidance for what’s next. You can explore Drew Hensley’s book Invisible Grief wherever books are sold. Take the next step toward honest healing and wise transition today.

For many pastors, it comes after years of carrying responsibility, managing expectations, and trying to care for everyone around them while quietly neglecting themselves and their families. 

In this episode, Shawn Gwaltney shares the story of how ministry slowly became unsustainable, what pushed him toward transition, and how he eventually rediscovered purpose through business, mentorship, and helping others find clarity. 

This conversation offers hope for leaders wrestling with burnout, identity loss, and the fear of what comes next after ministry.

• Ministry burnout often grows slowly through constant emotional pressure and unclear boundaries
• Many pastors already possess leadership and relational skills that transfer well into the marketplace
• Identity can become deeply tied to the title of “pastor,” making transition emotionally difficult
• Healthy leadership in business still requires empathy, discipleship, and genuine care for people
• Clarity is often the first step toward healing and rebuilding after ministry transition

• 00:00 – Shawn’s return to church and entry into ministry
• 03:20 – The pressures that pushed ministry toward burnout
• 07:20 – Choosing family over vocational ministry
• 10:20 – Systems pastors wish they had built sooner
• 11:20 – Transferable leadership skills pastors already have
• 16:00 – Wrestling with identity after leaving ministry
• 18:30 – Faith, wealth, and business ownership
• 23:00 – Helping pastors find clarity after transition
• 26:00 – Meaning, purpose, and life after success
• 28:20 – Shawn’s mission to help others grow

If you’re navigating a ministry transition, start a conversation with the team at Ministry Transitions.

And to connect with Shawn Gwaltney and learn more about his mentorship and business resources, visit Shawn Gwaltney.

Jonathan’s story is one of heartbreak and healing, tension and transformation. Whether you’re wrestling with burnout, navigating a tough transition, or trying to figure out how to use your gifts in a new space, this episode is packed with wisdom and encouragement for the road ahead.

Key Takeaways:

• The emotional toll of juggling multiple ministry roles and unmet expectations.
• How reconciliation with former leaders brings closure and healing.
• The difference between calling, identity, and vocation—and why it matters.
• Practical advice for navigating transitions with honor, grace, and faith.

Chapter Markers: 0:00 – Introduction: Meeting Jonathan Carone and his ministry backstory. 5:20 – The toll of split roles: Balancing creative director, communications, and high school ministry. 12:45 – The moment of transition: What it means to be “coached off staff.” 20:10 – Reconciling relationships: Finding healing with former leaders. 28:30 – Identity vs. vocation: Lessons in rediscovering purpose after ministry. 35:50 – Thriving outside the church: Finding new ways to serve and make an impact. 42:15 – Final thoughts: Living boldly for the kingdom beyond vocational ministry.

Call to Action: Transitioning out of ministry is hard, but there’s hope and purpose on the other side. Let’s embrace the truth that your calling is bigger than your vocation. For more stories, insights, and encouragement, subscribe to Life After Ministry wherever you listen to podcasts. Let’s navigate this journey together!

In this episode, Matt Davis introduces Ron Henry, the newly appointed Chief Succession Officer at Ministry Transitions. Ron brings decades of experience in executive placement and career development, but his deeper calling? 

Helping leaders find where God wants them next.

This isn’t just a career conversation - it’s a soul-level journey. 

Ron shares raw stories of failure, fear, and faith, revealing what makes a transition succeed or fall apart. 

Whether you're facing a career shift, retirement, or leading an organization through change, this episode is packed with wisdom you need now - not someday.

If you’ve ever asked, “What’s next for me?” - this conversation is your next step.

• From Music to Ministry: Ron’s career in music and executive search wasn’t random - it was preparation for ministry impact.
• The Power of NetWeaving: True connection isn’t just networking - it’s purposeful relationship building.
• Great Fit vs. Good Fit: Success isn’t just about skills. Cultural and spiritual alignment make all the difference.
• Why Transitions Fail: Fear, pride, and desperation can sabotage a move. Wisdom, patience, and community bring peace.
• Succession is Spiritual: Planning for what’s next isn’t just smart - it’s biblical stewardship.
• Community Over Ego: Millennials’ community-first mindset gives Ron hope for the church’s future.
• Finishing Strong: Leaders must not cling to identity in a title. True legacy comes from passing the torch well.

00:00 – Welcome + Big Announcement: Ron joins Ministry Transitions as Chief Succession Officer 01:05 – Ron’s Journey: From the music industry to executive search to ministry 02:38 – NetWeaving Defined: The art of connecting people with purpose 03:36 – What Makes a Great Fit?: Beyond resumes - finding calling and chemistry 05:25 – Why Transitions Fail: The danger of pride and panic hires 07:12 – Building vs. Self-Focus: Healthy transitions prioritize relationship 07:59 – Why Now?: Ron’s fourth quarter and finishing strong 09:28 – What CSO Really Means: The responsibility behind the title 10:52 – Where the Church Misses It: Lack of awareness and training in transitions 12:54 – Leaders Who Avoid Succession Planning: Fear, pride, and identity traps 14:19 – Joshua and Moses: Biblical blueprint for succession 15:40 – The Moment Ron Lives For: Seeing someone discover God’s purpose 17:40 – Why Millennials Give Him Hope: Community, transparency, and change 19:51 – Living Water: Why input must be matched with output 21:14 – Mentors + Influencers: The people who poured into Ron 24:38 – To the Board Members: What you're really accountable for 26:44 – How to Reach Ron: Email and conversations that start with coffee 28:00 – Final Words: Linking arms for Kingdom impact

If you’re in ministry and facing a career shift, don’t walk that road alone. Ministry Transitions exists to walk with you - through the letting go and into what’s next. Whether you're a pastor, a board member, or a nonprofit leader, now is the time to steward your transition well.

Visit ministrytransitions.com to access resources, connect with Ron, or schedule a confidential conversation today.

In this episode, we sit down with Jon Talbert - pastor, coach, and co-founder of Forte - to talk about the quiet unraveling that often happens behind the scenes in leadership. 

Jon has led at the highest levels of church and nonprofit work, but somewhere along the way, he realized he was losing himself in the process. What followed wasn’t a dramatic exit - but a deliberate shift. A reckoning. A redefinition of calling.

If you’ve ever questioned your role, your rhythm, or even your relevance in ministry, this conversation will hit close to home. 

Jon gets honest about burnout, identity, and why courage sometimes looks like letting go.

This isn’t just about recovering from ministry. It’s about discovering what’s next - with less fear and more freedom.

• What most leaders miss about the difference between calling and identity
• Why burnout isn’t always loud - and how to recognize it early
• The real cost of avoiding your own growth
• How to lead with clarity when the crowd is gone
• What “editing your life” looks like in a post-ministry season

00:00 – Jon’s early ministry story 06:12 – From platform to pressure: the silent drift 14:45 – Burnout and the addiction to being needed 21:08 – Risk, honesty, and what it really means to lead well 29:17 – How Forte walks with leaders in transition 36:30 – Wrestling with faith after leaving ministry 41:40 – Final thoughts: courage over comfort

If you’re facing a leadership shift, you don’t have to do it alone. Start a conversation at ministrytransitions.com.

Follow Jon Talbert on LinkedIn

Learn more about his work at getforte.com

And explore their support for faith leaders at getforte.com/faith

In Episode 2 of the Life After Ministry Podcast, we sit down with Bill Tom, Founder, CEO, and Chief Ministry Officer of Pastoral Transitions.

With a rich background in career coaching and executive search, Bill offers priceless advice on vocational discernment for those exiting ministry roles.

The episode, aptly titled "How To Figure Out Your Career After Ministry," provides a roadmap for navigating life's next chapter. Bill also reveals the recurring theme he encountered in his office that was the catalyst for creating Pastoral Transitions.

Tune in for profound insights that could be your first steps toward a fulfilling second act.

In this candid conversation, Dr. Anthony unpacks common mistakes boards make, the unseen cost of poor governance, and the simple practices that lead to longevity and mission health.

From defining lanes to using a “log of motions,” from succession planning to EQ, he explains why leadership transitions succeed - or fail - long before the public ever sees it.

And he gets personal, sharing the story of his most painful ministry transition, the “dark night of the soul” it brought, and how God restored his joy and purpose.

Whether you’re a ministry leader, board member, or walking through a transition, this episode will give you tools to strengthen your leadership and hope for what’s next.

• Why lack of proper orientation is one of the most common board failures.

• How a “log of motions” can prevent repetitive mistakes and clarify focus.

• The three duties of board members: care, loyalty, and obedience.

• Why clear role boundaries prevent dysfunction between boards and staff.

• Succession planning as a regular board discipline, not a crisis reaction.

• The critical role EQ plays in leadership longevity.

• How God can use painful transitions for deeper growth and joy.

00:00 – Welcome & backstory with Dr. Michael Anthony 01:11 – Why this book on nonprofit boards 02:18 – Common causes of board dysfunction 05:24 – The onboarding process done right 07:43 – What’s a “log of motions” and why it matters 09:48 – The three duties of every board member 14:36 – Board size, terms, and rotation 18:04 – How to transition a board member off gracefully 20:36 – When to resign from a board for unity’s sake 24:17 – Role of the board chair & relationship with CEO 31:09 – Using ongoing board training to stay healthy 32:11 – Succession planning without personal attack 34:39 – How boards can handle leadership exits well 38:43 – Accountability, care, and EQ in board leadership 43:54 – What’s at stake if boards are neglected 46:52 – Differences between church and nonprofit boards 49:52 – Growing through painful ministry transitions 57:52 – How to connect with Dr. Anthony

If you’re walking through a ministry transition - or know someone who is - you’re not alone. Connect with us at ministrytransitions.com for coaching, resources, and a path forward. To reach Dr. Michael Anthony directly, email manthony@dts.edu or michael@calibrateglobalconsulting.com.

In Episode 8, we sit down with Gary Weaber, who poured his heart into pastoral ministry for over three and a half decades. Imagine, after 36 dedicated years, facing a conversation with your elders about stepping down from your teaching role.

Most pastors dread this talk, fearing miscommunication, hurt, and the potential fallout that could affect the congregation.

Yet, Gary's story shines a different light.

Instead of walking away with wounds, he left that meeting feeling uplifted, rating the experience an impressive 11 out of 10.

So, what was their secret?

Gary shares the foundation of trust, open communication, and mutual respect they had nurtured over the years. It's a testament to what's possible when leaders prioritize relationships and unity.

Now, as he embraces a new chapter with Stand Stone Ministry, Gary's journey offers invaluable insights for church elders and pastors approaching similar crossroads. Dive in and discover the keys to navigating these pivotal transitions with grace, understanding, and a shared vision.

In Episode 3 of the Life After Ministry Podcast, we talk to Noe Rivera, a key member of the founding team behind Pastoral Transitions.

Growing up as a pastor's kid, Noe intimately understands the emotional toll that ministry transitions can take on families.

Titled "Mental Health After Ministry," this episode dives into Noe's missionary years and the shifts that followed, laying the groundwork for his current role as a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist (LMFT).

Noe specializes in aiding individuals exiting vocational ministry, guiding them toward heart clarity and helping them attune to God's voice.

Don't miss this episode full of hard-earned wisdom and spiritual insights.

In Episode 5, "Pain Is A Teacher," we sit down with the inspiring couple, Gary & Lisa Black, to discuss the transformative power of enduring life's toughest transitions.

From losing a spouse and a child to navigating numerous shifts in ministry, Gary and Lisa have amassed a wealth of wisdom that they generously share in this episode.

Their story is a testament to the resilience of faith and the lessons that can only be learned through pain.

Get your pen and paper ready—you won't want to miss the invaluable insights from this power couple.

Learn more about Gary & Lisa at garyandlisablack.com and mandate456.org.

You can also purchase a signed copy of Lisa’s book: All The Sacred Things here.