Chapters

• (00:00) Welcome and introduction
• (02:26) The story behind 20+ years in EO
• (05:53) Why employee owned firms still face succession challenges
• (07:42) Separating ownership succession from leadership succession
• (11:17) Why owners choose EO over a trade sale
• (13:21) The concept of "enough" and the magic number
• (18:00) The 25% rule: how long it really takes to fund a 100% disposal
• (22:21) The 2014 tax relief and mainstreaming EO
• (23:41) October 2024: from 100% to 50% CGT discount
• (28:34) The missed opportunity around debt finance
• (32:26) Refinancing the back-end of founder debt
• (33:26) The four pillars: deal, ownership, governance, culture
• (37:04) Informed, consult, consent in practice
• (40:31) Day, year, extremis: stress-testing your structure
• (42:27) Fast round: leaders, resources, advice
• (45:00) Where to find Ewan

Key takeaways

• 💡 Ownership succession and leadership succession run on different timelines — don't conflate them.
• ✅ The conversation about "enough" unlocks every other decision a founder needs to make.
• 🎯 Profit multiple + 25% = roughly the years it'll take to fund a 100% disposal at flat profits.
• 🌟 The four pillars of a healthy transition: the deal, ownership, governance, and culture.
• 💷 EOT tax relief at 50% still saves around 12% — no other UK exit comes close.
• ⚖️ Stress-test your structure across three scenarios: a day, a year, and an emergency.

Notable quotes

• "You don't just stick shares in a trust and call it a day."
• "Once people get past the concept of enough, they unclench a bit."
• "I want to be able to drive past this workplace and feel all right about it."

Links

• 🔗 Ewan Hall on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ewan-hall-3a7b902a/
• 🔗 Baxendale Employee Ownership: https://baxendaleownership.co.uk
• 🔗 Employee Ownership Association: https://employeeownership.co.uk
• 🔗 Host Andy Farquharson: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/
• 🔗 a better monday: https://abettermonday.me

Chapters:

• (00:00) Welcome and introducing Joseph
• (01:39) From Obran to Sarvis: co-op to ESOP
• (07:10) No silver bullet — operations come first
• (09:26) The real magic of employee ownership
• (11:05) Home care and the Silver Tsunami
• (13:29) Going head-to-head with private equity
• (16:32) Rituals, open-book management, alignment
• (23:50) Sarvis OS: the three-part rollout
• (30:53) Investing in tech and people together
• (34:00) The design partner model
• (39:30) A five-year vision
• (43:50) Fast round
• (46:10) A question for owners on the fence

Key Takeaways:

• 💡 Employee ownership isn't a magic bullet. You still have to be a great operator every day.
• ✅ The magic is a team of "disagreeable givers" aligned around shared outcomes.
• 🌟 Home care fits employee ownership because workers already care deeply about their communities.
• 🎧 A single AI-enabled platform turns ownership engagement into action.
• ✅ Start with the detractors. The loudest critics make the best design partners.

Notable Quotes:

• "There's no silver bullet. And there is some magic."
• "Clarity is kindness."
• "In five or ten years, what option would you regret not taking?"

Links & Resources:

• Joseph Cureton: https://www.linkedin.com/in/josephbuilds/
• Sarvis Health: https://sarvishealth.com
• Obran Cooperative: https://www.obran.coop
• The Companies We Keep by John Abrams
• Collective Courage by Jessica Gordon Nembhard
• Host Andy Farquharson: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/
• a better monday: https://abettermonday.me

You get America's first employee ownership trust – and one of the most compelling performance stories in the employee ownership movement. Kevin Clegg shares how Clegg Auto, a group of four repair shops in Utah County, doubled profits and grew employee profit-sharing tenfold in their very first year as an EOT – without raising a single price. He also digs into the real challenge: building an ownership culture from the inside out, and his evolving vision for a business cooperative movement that could reshape small business succession across the US.

Key Takeaways:

✅ Employee ownership isn't just an exit strategy – it's an operating model that drives measurable performance from day one ✅ Structuring profit-sharing so employees benefit immediately (not after former owners are paid off) is what makes it real and tangible ✅ Financial transparency is a powerful tool – but open-book management only works when employees can see their own personal impact on the numbers ✅ Building an ownership culture takes years, not a transaction – and even seasoned owners don't always act like owners ✅ A business cooperative (not a worker cooperative) could be the scalable model to bring the Silver Tsunami of retiring owners into employee ownership en masse ✅ The best employee voice frameworks match decision-making authority to expertise – not a one-person, one-vote free-for-all

Notable Quotes:

💬 "There should be some sort of exit that's beneficial for everyone – not just for the people who started the thing."

💬 "The hardest part of the transition to employee ownership wasn't coming up with the structure and transacting it. The hardest part still is – and is – the culture afterwards."

💬 "There's nothing better than preserving what you've created, and there's no better way to do it, in my opinion, than employee ownership."

Links:

🔗 Kevin Clegg on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevin-clegg-59655a/ 🔗

Clegg Auto website: https://cleggauto.com 🔗

Host Andy Farquharson: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/ 🔗

a better monday: https://abettermonday.me

Colin Wade tripled revenue at a Scottish coatings manufacturer by doing succession differently.

About the episode:

Most founders approach succession by searching for someone just like them — younger, with decades of niche expertise, ready to replicate what made the business successful. Colin Wade's founder at Chemco International tried that approach multiple times. It never worked. The business didn't need another technical genius. It needed someone to cherish the strengths whilst fixing the weaknesses.

Colin joined Chemco in 2018 specifically to lead its transition to 100% employee ownership — an unusual move for a seasoned MD, but one inspired by David Erdal's book about Loch Fyne Oysters. He started with a simple SWOT analysis, recruited to fill the gaps, and spent two patient years building a culture where factory floor workers became self-empowered shareholders. Chemco now runs a hybrid model with a 51% EOT and up to 49% direct shares distributed equally to all employees.

This conversation explores deliberate succession planning, why manufacturing employees can absolutely embrace ownership, and how quarterly "shareholder meetings" change the relationship between management and workforce.

Guest Information:

🔗 Colin Wade — Managing Director, Chemco International LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/colinwade1967/

🔗 Chemco International: https://www.chemcoint.com

Chapters:

00:00 - Introduction 01:52 - Actively seeking employee ownership 03:05 - Why founders seek younger versions of themselves 04:26 - Inspired by David Erdal's book 06:22 - The succession unicorn problem 08:05 - Starting with SWOT analysis 09:10 - Cherishing strengths, recruiting for weaknesses 10:05 - Succession planning & EO transitions 11:30 - Collaborative problem-solving 12:43 - Can manufacturing embrace ownership? 13:18 - The settling-in period 14:33 - Resistance to change 15:30 - Two years to build the right team 16:24 - When self-empowerment feels overwhelming 18:17 - Quarterly shareholder meetings 20:04 - Hybrid model: 51% trust, 49% direct shares 22:31 - Skin in the game 24:17 - Patience in culture change 25:42 - Leadership in employee-owned businesses 27:46 - Best of capitalism and cooperation 28:38 - Advice for owners on succession 31:27 - Fast round 34:03 - Connect with Colin and Chemco

About The Alternative Exit:

A podcast exploring employee ownership as a succession planning strategy, hosted by Andy Farquharson of a better monday.

🔗 Host: Andy Farquharson — https://www.linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/

🔗 Learn more: https://abettermonday.me

Links & Resources:

• Chemco International: https://www.chemcoint.com
• "Local Heroes" by David Erdal (Loch Fyne Oysters story)
• Employee Ownership Association UK: https://employeeownership.co.uk
• Scottish Enterprise Employee Ownership support

#EmployeeOwnership #EOT #Manufacturing #SuccessionPlanning #Scotland #EmployeeOwned #BusinessSuccession #AlternativeExit #Leadership #Coatings

His weekly newsletter, The Stakehold, tracks everything from ESOPs to worker co-ops to purpose trusts, revealing an ecosystem most people don't realise exists.

In this conversation, Mark breaks down the three dimensions of alternative ownership (purpose, profit distribution, and power), explains why 'fat wallets and broken hearts' is the real cost of traditional exits, and challenges us to help business owners surface what actually matters to them beyond maximising financial returns.

Key Takeaways:

💡 Three dimensions of ownership transformation — companies are experimenting with purpose (why we exist), profit distribution (who benefits), and power (who decides), and these dimensions can be approached independently or together

✅ Structure makes purpose real — benefit corporations, purpose trusts, and employee ownership lock in commitments that signal to stakeholders this isn't lip service, it's irrevocable

🌟 As many employee owners as union members — in the US, employee ownership already touches as many workers as labour unions, but most employee owners don't see themselves as part of a movement

🎧 Owners are playing multiple games — business owners aren't just profit-maximisers, they're parents, community members, congregation members with different identities that get triggered by how you approach the conversation

📈 Fat wallets and broken hearts — many owners who sell to private equity leave wealthy but regretful, watching their companies dismantled and their employees laid off

💼 Democracy works in complex systems — if countries can operate democratically without dictators, companies (which are simpler than nations) can too

Notable Quotes:

"I saw friends of his sell to private equity companies and they left with fat wallets and broken hearts. Humans have wallets and we also have hearts."

"Our commitment to shareholder value maximisation has actually blinded us to the ways that humans interact with each other and what is possible."

"If you can figure out how to run a country democratically, why wouldn't we be able to do that in a company, which is actually a much simpler structure?"

Links & Resources:

🔗 Guest: Mark Hand — https://www.linkedin.com/in/markchand

🔗 The Stakehold (weekly newsletter): https://www.thestakehold.com

🔗 PTON (Purpose Trust Ownership Network): https://trustownership.org/

🔗 Mark's website: https://markclaytonhand.com/

📖 Recommended: Rutgers CLEO website (compilation of academic learning on employee ownership)

🔗 Host: Andy Farquharson — https://www.linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/

🔗 a better monday: https://abettermonday.me

Key Takeaways:

🌟 Denmark's EOC law creates a level playing field for the first time — previously it was always easier to sell to family or an external buyer than to employees

✅ Cross-party unity was the secret weapon — seven parties from across the political divide agreed because employee ownership solved four shared problems: succession, productivity, worker welfare, and community resilience

💡 Three implementation lessons from the UK — create early champions, build the advisor ecosystem, and rigorously document everything so the law can be refined

🎧 Lower barriers accelerate uptake — Denmark only requires a 33% minimum sale to employees (vs 50% in the UK's EOT), making it easier for cautious owners to take the first step

📈 Capital infrastructure is next — five financial institutions are already in discussions on loan guarantees and strategic employee ownership lending

🔗 The employees are genuinely in control — unlike some models, Denmark's EOC gives employees 100% ownership of the holding vehicle and seats on the board

Notable Quotes:

"I have never been in a room where we could agree so much across the radical left and radical right. I've not seen anything like it since the climate movement in Denmark."

"You have an opportunity to make history. This is a way to preserve your legacy — by turning your company over to the employees. That will make your company more stable in the future."

"We are in great debt to the UK, the EOA, Graham Nuttall, Campbell. We've got all these people that have helped us — and that's the only reason I have quite a bit of optimism that this might create, within a few years, an ownership revolution."

Links & Resources:

🔗 Guest: Andreas Pinstrup Jørgensen — https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreas-pinstrup-j%C3%B8rgensen-021ba3a8/

🔗 Think Tank for Democratic Businesses: https://demokratiskerhverv.dk/

📖 Book: Medejer (Co-Ownership — the art of overtaking competitors through democratic ownership), 2020

📖 Recommended reading: Making One Dragon (White & White) | The Citizen's Share (Blasi, Freeman & Kruse, 2013)

🔗 Host: Andy Farquharson — https://www.linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/

🔗 a better monday: https://abettermonday.me

Michael Morosi is proving that existing employee-owned companies can become acquisition engines that transform entire industries. As Co-Founder of 40 Million Owners and Managing Partner at Southeast Acquisition Capital, he's pioneered a model where ESOPs use M&A to grow, create value, and expand employee ownership at scale.

About the episode:

This conversation dives deep into the mechanics and mindset of ESOP acquisitions. Michael shares his journey from managing $100M in equity funds in Madrid to building Southeast Acquisition Capital from zero to $25M in revenue through strategic ESOP acquisitions. We explore why ESOPs have structural advantages as acquirers, how to build culture across a portfolio of employee-owned companies, and why the upcoming wave of Baby Boomer exits could create 40 million new employee owners. Whether you're running an ESOP considering growth through acquisition or a business owner exploring succession options, this episode reveals a playbook for building sustainable, employee-owned enterprises.

Guest Information:

🔗 Michael Morosi - Co-Founder, 40 Million Owners & Managing Partner, Southeast Acquisition Capital LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-morosi/

🔗 40 Million Owners: https://40millionowners.com

🔗 Southeast Acquisition Capital: https://www.southeastacquisition.com

Chapters/Timestamps:

00:00 - Introduction to Michael Morosi

04:32 - From Global Equity Management to Employee Ownership

12:15 - The Birth of 40 Million Owners

18:45 - Why ESOPs Make Excellent Acquirers

27:30 - Southeast Acquisition Capital's Model

35:20 - From Zero to $25M in Revenue Through Acquisitions

42:15 - The Mechanics of ESOP M&A

51:00 - Building Culture Across Multiple Companies

58:30 - The 3LS Acquisition Story

01:04:20 - Vision for 40 Million Employee Owners

About The Alternative Exit:

A podcast exploring employee ownership as a succession planning strategy, hosted by Andy Farquharson of a better monday.

🔗 Host: Andy Farquharson - https://www.linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/

🔗 Learn more: https://abettermonday.me

Links & Resources:

• 40 Million Owners website: https://40millionowners.com
• Southeast Acquisition Capital: https://www.southeastacquisition.com
• Michael's article "The Force Multiplier": https://40millionowners.com/2025/03/12/the-force-multiplier/

#EmployeeOwnership #ESOP #MergersAndAcquisitions #SuccessionPlanning #ImpactInvesting #PrivateEquity #BusinessGrowth #EmployeeOwned #CorporateDevelopment #AlternativeExit

What if the solution to America's wealth inequality crisis was hiding in plain sight?

Noelle Lentz is mobilising millions in capital specifically designed for employee ownership transitions. As CEO of Allivate Impact Capital, she's launched one of only two ESOP-focused funds in the US, providing the subordinated debt that makes employee ownership financially viable for selling owners. With over 50% of business owners aged 55+, Noelle explains why employee ownership isn't just good for workers it's the smartest succession strategy for preserving legacy, stabilising supply chains, and creating economic equity at scale.

Chapters:

00:00 - Introduction
01:42 - From International Development to Community Finance
04:54 - Founding Allivate Impact Capital
08:56 - The Silver Tsunami and Employee Ownership
12:45 - How the Elevate Employee Ownership Fund Works
18:30 - Target Companies and Investment Criteria
22:15 - The Capital Gap in ESOP Transitions
27:09 - Scaling from $10M to $150M Through SBIC Licensing
30:08 - Finding Deal Flow and Partnerships
31:04 - Quick Fire Round

Key Takeaways:

✅ Over 50% of US business owners are 55+ and facing succession decisions in the next decade
💡 Employee-owned companies show higher productivity, retention, and morale than traditional structures
🎯 Most ESOP transitions require 70-80% seller financing because banks won't subordinate debt
💰 Allivate provides $1-2M in subordinated debt (15% of deal value) to make transitions financially viable
📈 The fund is targeting $150M through SBIC licensing to create thousands of employee owners
🌟 Employee ownership receives rare bipartisan political support due to economic stabilisation benefits

Notable Quotes:

"This is not just a payday, this is your legacy. And if there's a way to preserve that legacy, empower your employees, and still get the financial return you've worked so hard for, it's really worth considering."

"When you're not just coming to work to check your time card and clock out, you're really thinking like an owner and contributing to not just the company's bottom line, but your own bottom line."

Links & Resources:

🔗 Noelle Lentz on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/noellestclair
🔗 Allivate Impact Capital: https://allivate.com

Employee Ownership, ETA, ESOP, Acquisition, Leadership, Business Strategy, Employee Engagement, Company Culture, Value Creation, Business Transition

Summary

In this episode of the Alternative Exit, host Andy Farquharson interviews Jeff Easterling, CEO of ART and Associates, who shares his unique perspective on employee ownership through the lens of entrepreneurship through acquisition (ETA). Jeff discusses the moral imperative behind his leadership style, the challenges and strategies involved in transitioning to an employee-owned company, and the cultural shifts necessary for success. He emphasizes the importance of collaboration, transparency, and the long-term benefits of employee ownership for both employees and business owners. The conversation also touches on the barriers to employee ownership in the ETA space and offers advice for business owners and ETA searchers considering this path.

Takeaways

• Geoff Easterling emphasizes the moral imperative behind employee ownership.
• The transition to employee ownership requires cultural shifts within the company.
• Collaboration and transparency are key to successful leadership in employee-owned businesses.
• Employee ownership can create a legacy that benefits both employees and owners.
• The acquisition process can be structured to minimize personal risk for the buyer.
• Long-term strategies are more beneficial than short-term profit maximization.
• There are significant barriers to understanding and implementing ESOPs in the ETA space.
• Business owners should consider employee ownership as part of their exit strategy.
• ETA searchers can find creative financing options through ESOP funds.
• Building a strong network is crucial for success in the acquisition process.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Employee Ownership and ETA

02:48 The Unique Perspective of Employee Ownership

05:48 Navigating the Acquisition Process

08:51 Moral Imperative in Business Leadership

12:12 Cultural Shifts in Employee-Owned Companies

14:47 Value Creation Strategies Post-Acquisition

17:50 Challenges of Transitioning to Employee Ownership

20:58 The Knowledge Gap in Employee Ownership

24:03 Advice for Business Owners and ETA Searchers

In this engaging episode of The Alternative Exit Podcast, host Andy interviews John Abrams, President and CEO of South Mountain Company, to explore the transformative power of employee ownership. John shares his company’s journey from a traditional business model to becoming an employee-owned cooperative, detailing the challenges, rewards, and cultural shifts involved. 

Through personal anecdotes and decades of experience, he illustrates how employee ownership fosters commitment, builds community, and creates a lasting positive impact. Tune in to hear John's insights on reshaping business leadership through shared responsibility and ownership.

Key Takeaways:

• Learning how employee ownership transforms commitment and leadership within a company.
• Hearing the real-life challenges of transitioning from sole ownership to a worker cooperative.
• Understanding the role employee ownership plays in building a sustainable, community-driven company.
• Discovering the long-term impact of shared ownership on company culture and leadership succession.

Resources Mentioned:

• The Company We Keep: Reinventing Small Business for Community, People and Place By John Abrams - https://www.amazon.com/Company-We-Keep-Reinventing-Community/dp/1931498733

About John Abrams:

John Abrams is the President and CEO of South Mountain Company, Inc., a forty-year-old employee-owned design and building company located on the island of Martha’s Vineyard, Massachusetts and the author of The Company We Keep: Reinventing Small Business for Community, People and Place (Chelsea Green Publishing, 2005). South Mountain Company is committed to a Triple Bottom Line, which means that people, planet, and profit are all equally important to them – balancing profits with environmental restoration, social justice, and community engagement.

He’s also the Co-founder of Building Energy Bottom Lines (a peer group network of 60+ Northeast U.S. businesses in the architecture and construction industry), and I engage in a variety of forms of community activism, mostly involving affordable housing. John serves on the steering committee and executive committee of The Coalition to Create the Martha’s Vineyard Housing Bank and the board of Camp Jabberwocky.

Connect with John Abrams:

• LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-abrams-3bb94683/
• Websites - https://www.southmountain.com/ and https://abramsangell.com/

Connect with Andy Farquharson:

• LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/
• Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/andyfarq
• Website - https://abettermonday.me/
• Email - andy@abettermonday.me

He also delves into the benefits of ownership culture for workers, businesses, and communities. Tune in to discover how employee ownership can revolutionize both businesses and the lives of employees, and why it might just be the solution many companies are looking for.

Key Takeaways:

• The advantages of employee ownership in fostering a more equitable workplace and wealth distribution.
• Transforming companies by combining real ownership with high-involvement management systems.
• How tax benefits and ESOPs make employee ownership a practical exit strategy for business owners.
• Empowering employees by granting them access to critical financial information and involving them in decision-making processes.
• An overview of how employee ownership boosts productivity, reduces turnover, and promotes a stronger sense of community.

Resources Mentioned:

• Beyond Engagement By Corey Rosen - https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Engagement-Make-Business-Factory/dp/193822096X
• Equity: Why Employee Ownership is Good for Business By Corey Rosen, John Case, and Martin Staubus - https://www.amazon.com/Equity-Employee-Ownership-Good-Business/dp/1591393310
• Employee Ownership in America by Corey Rosen, Katherine J. Klein, and Karen M. Young - https://www.amazon.com/Employee-Ownership-America-Organization-Management/dp/0669103071

About Corey Rosen:

Corey Rosen is the Founder and an active staff member of the National Center for Employee Ownership (NCEO), a private, nonprofit membership, information, and research organization in Oakland, California. The NCEO is widely considered to be the authoritative source on broad-based employee ownership plans. He co-founded the NCEO in 1981 after working five years as a professional staff member in the U.S. Senate, where he helped draft legislation on employee ownership plans.

He is the author or co-author of over 100 articles and numerous books on employee ownership, and co-author (with John Case and Martin Staubus) of Equity: Why Employee Ownership is Good for Business (Harvard Business School Press, 2005). He has appeared frequently on CNN, PBS, NPR, MSNBC, and other network programs; and is regularly quoted in the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times, BusinessWeek, and other leading publications. He has lectured on employee ownership on six continents.

Connect with Corey Rosen:

• LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/corey-rosen-3a8a8a4/
• Website - https://www.nceo.org/

Connect with Andy Farquharson:

• LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/
• Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/andyfarq
• Website - https://abettermonday.me/
• Email - andy@abettermonday.me

We break down what the data shows about EO’s transformative impact and uncover what really happens between the deal and a healthy ownership culture. Campbell shares the two essential questions every employee-owned company must answer, why education matters more than instructions, and how trust between boards and trustees shapes outcomes. We also touch on what employees value most and why setting honest expectations from day one is crucial.

Whether you’re a founder exploring EO or already past the transaction stage, Campbell offers a clear, practical roadmap for turning employee ownership into real, lasting impact.

Timestamps:

00:00 Introduction and Guest Overview
 01:30 Campbell's Journey into Employee Ownership
 05:45 The Power of John Lewis Partnership's Legacy
 09:20 The Transformative Impact of Employee Ownership
 14:15 The 2023 EO Knowledge Programme: Proof of Impact
 22:40 What Happens Inside the Black Box?
 28:50 The Two Critical Questions Every EO Business Must Answer
 35:10 Education vs. Instruction: Building Ownership Behaviors
 42:30 Setting Honest Expectations from Day One
 48:15 The Role of Independent Trustees in Building Trust
 55:20 Challenges and Opportunities Ahead for UK Employee Ownership

Key Takeaways:

⚫ Campbell’s Dublin “prove it” moment sparked his mission to gather hard data on EO impact.

⚫ The 2023 EO Knowledge Programme showed an 8–12% productivity boost and strong individual outcomes in EO businesses.

⚫ Leaders must answer two questions: What are your 2–3 ownership differences? What owner behaviors do you expect?

⚫ The “good company penalty”: strong pre-EO businesses must work harder to show clear ownership benefits.

⚫ Materiality surveys uncover surprising differences in what employees value across locations and roles.

About Campbell McDonald:

Campbell McDonald is the Managing Director of the Eternal Business Consultancy, Chief Executive of Ownership at Work, and an Executive Fellow at Rutgers University’s Institute for the Study of Employee Ownership. With 14 years in the EO movement, he has supported dozens of businesses through transitions and serves as an independent trustee for several employee-owned companies. He led the 2023 EO Knowledge Programme—the UK’s largest research study on the impact of employee ownership. Campbell previously consulted for the John Lewis Partnership and founded Baxendale Advisory, an EOT-owned management consultancy. He champions evidence-based approaches to unlocking the transformative power of EO.

Connect with Campbell McDonald:

Website: https://www.theeternalbusiness.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/campbell-mcdonald-628378
Ownership at Work: https://ownershipatwork.org 

Connect with Andy Farquharson:

LinkedIn - https://linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/
Instagram - https://instagram.com/andyfarq
Website - https://abettermonday.me/
Email - andy@bettermonday.me 

In this live episode from the EOA Conference in Telford, Andy talks with Liam Toms, Communications and Engagement Manager at Grapevine, a managed service provider for IT and telecom services. Nearly three years into their employee ownership journey, Liam shares candid insights about being somewhere "in the middle" - past the early surprises but still navigating challenges.

Key Takeaways:

Liam represents a common experience: he found out Grapevine was transitioning to EO through individual meetings, not a broad announcement. He'd heard whispers the week before and "did a very good job of pretending to be totally surprised." While conventional wisdom suggests consulting staff beforehand, Liam acknowledges the tradeoff: "If you're going to work for a company rather than starting your own business, you're doing it because you want the features of being employed. Suddenly you're saying people have these heightened responsibilities they didn't ask for."

The business set up an EO forum with their longest-serving employee (33 years), Liam, and a very new recruit. What started as employee representation became a "task squad" - lifting rocks that hadn't been moved in years, dealing with organizational "life laundry" accumulated over 30 years. This gave Liam and his senior colleague confidence to move into management roles.

The conversation explores the challenge of profit share volatility: year one had healthy profit share, year two didn't. Logically, averaging across two years is still good. But people don't think that way. "It's like we did really well and then we're not doing well." The business is still learning how to help people see the bigger picture.

Memorable Moments:

• Finding out individually and pretending to be surprised
• The EO forum becoming an organizational "task squad"
• "Do things different so people see that something has changed" - Bella's key advice
• The challenge: "People don't really get it yet, like what they can and can't do"
• Year one profit share vs year two: "Business is like a piece of trucks"
• Hosting their first annual conference (after the venue cancelled a week before)
• Liam's advice: "Give it a go. What's the alternative? You sell to a bigger organization. I think we've had enough of that."

Guest: Liam Toms, Communications and Engagement Manager at Grapevine

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/liamtoms/
• Company: https://grapevine.uk.com

Sponsor: This episode is brought to you by EOT Expert by Christian Wilson – providing technical expertise and compliance support for EOT transitions and ongoing governance. Learn more at eotexpert.co.uk

In this episode of The Alternative Exit Podcast, Andy Farquharson is joined by Dr. Ellen Frank-Miller, a seasoned expert in workforce research and organizational development. Ellen, the founder and CEO of the Workforce and Organizational Research Center (Work), shares her expertise on the role of employee ownership in creating better workplaces. With a focus on the link between quality jobs and employee engagement, she discusses the pivotal role of leadership in shaping a culture of ownership within companies. Ellen explains how operational practices, such as giving employees more autonomy and fostering collaborative management, can ignite an ownership mindset, leading to better business outcomes. She also provides a deep dive into the scientific tools and research methods her organization uses to help businesses track progress and make informed decisions about cultivating an ownership culture.

Ellen challenges the traditional view of ownership, emphasizing that the culture around ownership is as important as the financial incentives tied to it. She outlines practical strategies that businesses can use to integrate ownership principles into their daily operations, fostering an environment where employees feel both responsible and invested in the company's success. This episode is a must-listen for leaders and business owners who want to build more engaged, loyal, and high-performing teams.

Key Takeaways:

• Ellen’s journey from HR consulting to founding WORK
• How academic research can be applied to improve business outcomes
• The connection between employee ownership and job quality
• Social exchange theory and its impact on ownership mindsets
• How to create an ownership mindset through management and autonomy
• The importance of measuring ownership behaviors with the Ownership Impact Index
• The role of leadership and communication in fostering ownership cultures
• Steps to implement an ownership culture through incremental changes
• The role of employee ownership in preserving a company’s legacy
• The various structures of employee ownership and their benefits

About Dr. Ellen Frank-Miller:

Dr. Ellen Frank-Miller is a thought leader in the field of workforce and organizational research. As the founder and CEO of the Workforce and Organizational Research Center (Work), she is committed to advancing research that links employee ownership with job quality and organizational success. Ellen’s work combines over three decades of experience in human capital strategy, research, and business transformation. She focuses on the intersection of academic research and practical application, using evidence-based methodologies to help organizations foster ownership cultures that drive business outcomes. Ellen’s insights are invaluable for companies looking to implement meaningful organizational change and create lasting improvements in employee engagement and performance.

Connect with Dr. Ellen Frank-Miller
Website: https://www.worcimpact.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ellenfrankmiller/

Connect with Andy Farquharson:
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/  
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/andyfarq   
Website - https://abettermonday.me/   
Email - andy@bettermonday.me   

We dive into the practical challenges workers face when stepping into ownership—from understanding financial statements to building confidence in decision-making. Frank breaks down open book management, effective facilitation techniques, and how cities are creating entire ecosystems to support transitions. Plus, he shares his remarkable story of converting his own Syracuse home into a housing cooperative, truly walking the talk of shared ownership.

Timestamps:

00:00 Introduction and Frank's Journey to Employee Ownership
05:00 Understanding the Democracy at Work Institute's Mission
09:00 Core Benefits of Employee Ownership for Workers
16:00 Overcoming Financial Literacy Challenges Through Open Book Management
 22:00 Building Confidence and Creating Effective Governance Structures
 29:00 Values-Driven Transitions and Working with Business Owners
 33:00 Building City-Scale Ecosystems for the Silver Tsunami
 37:00 Quickfire Round: Leaders, Resources, and Final Advice

Key Takeaways:

➔ Employee ownership delivers stability, increased wages through profit-sharing, and confidence growth—with the confidence factor being the most underappreciated benefit

➔ Financial literacy is the biggest challenge for new worker-owners; open book management should start years before transition with clear, jargon-free statements that connect numbers to daily work

➔ Strong facilitation and ongoing education are essential for effective participatory meetings and decision-making, helping workers build confidence to contribute strategically

➔ Successful transitions come from values-driven owners who prioritize legacy and community impact over maximizing sale price, though awareness gaps among accountants and advisors remain a major barrier

➔ City-level ecosystem building—with municipal funding for technical assistance, marketing, and referral networks—is proving to be the most effective strategy for scaling employee ownership during the silver tsunami

About Frank Cetera:

Frank Cetera is the Director of the Business Transfers Program at the Democracy at Work Institute, where he leads national efforts to support business transitions toward employee ownership. With roots in a union household and experience spanning environmental nonprofits to business development, Frank serves as the backbone coordinator for the Workers to Owners Collaborative—a network of 50+ organizations supporting employee ownership transitions across the United States. He also serves on the board of Syracuse Cooperative Federal Credit Union and is actively converting his own collective house into a housing cooperative, embodying the cooperative values he advocates professionally.

Connect with Frank Cetera:

Website: www.institute.coop
Website (Resources): www.becomingemployeeowned.org
https://www.linkedin.com/in/frankraymondcetera/ 

Connect with Andy Farquharson:

LinkedIn - https://linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/
Instagram - https://instagram.com/andyfarq
Website - https://abettermonday.me/
Email - andy@bettermonday.me

We explore how Eric thinks about employee ownership as an asset allocation problem, why culture requires intentional investment, and how to drive innovation in purpose-driven organizations. From quarterly town halls to investing in early-stage healthcare tech, Eric reveals what it takes to make employee ownership work in mission-focused businesses where workers care more about impact than retirement accounts.

Timestamps:

00:00 Introduction and Eric's Background
03:00 The First ESOP and Why It Closed to New Participants
07:00 The Rare ESOP-to-ESOP Leveraged Buyout
12:00 Three Ls and the Vertical Integration Strategy
20:00 Investing in Culture and Building Trust
30:00 Driving Innovation Through Frontline Creativity
36:00 Innovation as Asset Allocation
39:00 Common Myths About ESOPs
45:00 Quickfire Questions and Final Advice

Key Takeaways:

• Why OmniVisions needed a second ESOP after the first closed to new participants
• How to think about employee ownership as a retirement asset allocation problem
• The vertical integration playbook: turning operating expenses into employee-owned businesses
• Why quarterly town halls with open Q&A build the trust necessary for strong EO culture
• The biggest ESOP myths: complexity and cost compared to traditional exits
• Why it takes 24+ months for young workers to see meaningful value in their ESOP accounts

About Eric Strickland:

Eric Strickland is the CEO of 3Ls, a purpose-driven organization of 18 employee-owned companies serving human and health services across five states. With a 20-year tenure that began as CFO of OmniVisions in 2005, Eric has become a leading voice in the employee ownership movement, bringing a systems-minded, numbers-focused approach to social entrepreneurship.

Connect with Eric Strickland:

LinkedIn:https://linkedin.com/in/eric-strickland-3ls/
Website: https://3ls.com 

Connect with Andy Farquharson:

LinkedIn - https://linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/
Instagram - https://instagram.com/andyfarq
Website - https://abettermonday.me/
Email - andy@bettermonday.me

We explore the practical realities of steward ownership - from negotiating with skeptical investors to creating a governance structure where 19 employees now hold equal voting power. Juho opens up about the unexpected challenges of democratizing decision-making, the financial mechanics of capped returns, and how this alternative ownership model became a competitive advantage in hiring purpose-driven talent. This conversation reveals what it truly means to put mission before profit and the tangible steps any founder can take to protect their company's values in its legal DNA.

Timestamps:

00:00 Introduction and Guest Overview
 01:50 What is Steward Ownership?
 03:16 Sharetribe's Origin Story and Early Mission
 10:17 The Accidental Discovery of Steward Ownership
 12:50 Difficult Conversations with Venture Investors
 16:40 The Purpose That Drives Democratized Platform Ownership
 19:22 The Financial Structure: Capped Returns and Share Classes
 24:21 Self-Governance and Democratic Decision-Making
 31:18 Profit Distribution and Employee Equity
 36:05 Taking Employees on the Ownership Journey
 38:17 Low Attrition and Cultural Alignment
 40:06 Quick Fire Questions

Key Takeaways:

• Steward ownership combines two core principles: purpose over profit and self-governance by people connected to the company's mission
• The transition began when Sharetribe realized they couldn't credibly advocate for platform democratization while being venture-backed
• Investors were initially resistant but agreed to a buyout structure when shown it wasn't the company's "golden ticket" opportunity
• The financial model uses different share classes - voting shares for employees (no economic rights) and investor shares (no voting power, capped 5x returns)
• The structure serves as a powerful hiring filter, attracting mission-aligned talent while deterring profit-only motivated candidates
• Employee tenure averages 8+ years with minimal voluntary turnover, demonstrating strong cultural alignment

About Juho Makkonen:

Juho Makkonen is the co-founder and CEO of Sharetribe, a Finnish marketplace platform that enables anyone to build their own online marketplace. Under his leadership, Sharetribe transitioned from a traditional venture-backed startup to a pioneering steward-owned company in 2018. The company is now owned by 22 team members and funded by its customers - over 1,000 marketplace founders from 70+ countries. Juho is passionate about democratizing platform ownership and creating alternatives to extractive business models.

Connect with Juho:

Website: www.sharetribe.com
Blog: www.sharetribe.com/balanced
LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/juhomakkonen

Connect with Andy Farquharson:

LinkedIn - https://linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/
Instagram - https://instagram.com/andyfarq
Website - https://abettermonday.me/
Email - andy@bettermonday.me

• Smitha Mankat shares her dual role in grassroots work with artisans in India and as an independent director on corporate boards. She discusses the potential for broad-based employee ownership in India. 
• Ita McMahon from Castlefield Investment Partners reflects on the importance of democratizing wealth and the innovative practices of John Lewis in employee ownership. 
• Callum expresses his amazement at the supportive community and the potential for pension reform in the UK to support employee ownership. 
• Barry Horner highlights the growing international movement in employee ownership and the exciting potential for expansion in the UK. 
• Michael Golden discusses the rapid implementation of employee ownership in Slovenia and the potential for Canada to perfect the model with profit-sharing elements.

Conclusion: The symposium continues to be a platform for exchanging ideas and fostering innovation in employee ownership. Stay tuned for more insights as the event progresses.

Hashtags: #EmployeeOwnership #Innovation #OxfordSymposium #ImpactInvesting

• Karen McGuire, Chair of Employee Ownership Ireland, and 
• Pascal Nieuwland-Jansen, Director of the Netherlands Participation Institute.
• Frank Cumberbatch, Bader Philanthropies
• Jone Nolte, General Manager ASLE
• Dr. Gonzalo Hernandez, Professor and researcher ITESO

 Discover the latest innovations and the growing momentum of employee ownership models across the globe.

Key Highlights:

Karen McGuire shares her excitement about the growing awareness and application of employee ownership models in Northern Ireland. Pascal Nieuwland-Jansen discusses the organic evolution of employee ownership and its potential as the primary business model for new companies. Jone Nolte from the Basque Country emphasizes the importance of legislative innovation in Spain to promote employee ownership. Frank Cumberbatch highlights the cultural values at Bader Philanthropies and the wealth-building potential of employee ownership for low-income individuals.

Hashtags: #EmployeeOwnership #Innovation #BusinessModels

Andreas shares how a cold winter classroom at Yale, a pregnant French professor, and exposure to extreme inequality in the US set him on a path to dedicate his career to employee ownership and cooperatives. That journey ultimately led to the creation of Denmark’s first national think tank focused on democratic business models.

The conversation covers why Scandinavia forgot its own cooperative roots, how Denmark quietly rebuilt the infrastructure for democratic ownership, and why new legislation coming into force marks a genuine inflection point for employee ownership across Europe.

Key themes discussed

• Why employee ownership barely featured in Danish academic or policy circles for 30 years
• How exposure to US-style inequality changed Andreas’ worldview
• Pre-distribution vs redistribution and why ownership matters more than tax after the fact
• The scale of cooperatives in Denmark and why most employees don’t feel like owners
• The limits of “EO light” models in consumer cooperatives
• Building a movement and a knowledge base at the same time
• Denmark’s new Employee Ownership Company model and how it compares to the UK EOT
• Indivisible reserves, long-term stewardship, and preventing extractive behaviour
• Why democratic ownership is politically acceptable across party lines
• What other countries can learn from Denmark’s approach

Why this matters

Denmark went from almost zero employee-owned transitions to passing national legislation in under a decade. Not because of ideology, but because ownership structures solve real economic problems: succession, inequality, engagement, and long-term resilience.

This episode is a reminder that employee ownership doesn’t need reinvention. It needs infrastructure, patience, and people stubborn enough to stick with it.

Links

• Andreas Jørgensen and his work: https://demokratiskerhverv.dk/
• Learn more about employee ownership at abettermonday.me

Sponsor: This episode is brought to you by EOT Expert by Christian Wilson – providing technical expertise and compliance support for EOT transitions and ongoing governance. 

Learn more at eotexpert.co.uk

In this high-energy live episode from the EOA Conference in Telford, Andy sits down with Andrew Lane, Managing Director of Union Industries, a Yorkshire-based manufacturer of high-speed industrial doors. If you've bought food from a supermarket, it's been through one of their doors somewhere in its life.

Key Takeaways:

Andrew brings a unique perspective: he led a failed employee ownership transition in 2008, learned from every mistake, and then joined Union Industries in 2014 specifically to spearhead their transition into employee ownership. His biggest lesson? Start from the right place. If an owner's primary motivation is "tax-free money," it's probably not the right decision.

Union Industries' former owners wanted their money over 14 years. The owner was 78. That's when Andrew knew they were in it for the right reasons. The business paid them off years early "because they'd done a benevolent transaction that empowered their employees."

The conversation dives deep into Union's distinctive approach: equal bonuses regardless of tenure or salary ("You can't be in it together, but I get more money than you do"), weekly financial updates with numbers-graphs-traffic lights for every learning style, and a managing director who walks the floor weekly to keep ownership real for every fabricator and welder.

Memorable Moments:

• The forklift truck driver who's been the biggest bonus recipient for five years straight
• Why Andrew spent his energy on the 20% who didn't care (spoiler: you can't convert them)
• The service division employee who created a marketing campaign that sold £30,000 in three weeks
• "Don't come with a problem that doesn't have a matching solution"
• Why the business took a step change when the detail-grinding bottleneck was removed
• Andrew's closing challenge: "Tell me the reason not to"

Guest: Andrew Lane, Managing Director at Union Industries

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrew-lane-1b2b9815/
• Company: https://www.unionindustries.co.uk/

Sponsor: This episode is brought to you by EOT Expert by Christian Wilson – providing technical expertise and compliance support for EOT transitions and ongoing governance. Learn more at eotexpert.co.uk

Key Takeaways:

Agulhas works with the World Bank, African Development Bank, Green Climate Fund, UK government, and foundations like the Gates Foundation. When Catherine and the other two founders (now in their 50s and 60s) started succession planning, they had trade sale offers on paper that looked "really tempting." But research revealed the inside story wasn't as glowy - trade sales often affect values and lead to redundancies.

The financial outcome? A trade sale would have been better. But the decision wasn't about money.

Catherine describes their thoughtful transition process: 12-18 months of founder discussions, involving the four-person leadership team, keeping staff informed without overwhelming them. The key message wasn't about bonuses - it was about opportunity, responsibility, governance changes, and empowerment.

Five years later, the results speak for themselves: two of their main partner companies have since transitioned to EO, and one member of their supply chain too. Staff are having conversations about what EO means with their own agency and authority. And the founders are gradually exiting - Catherine leaves as a paid employee at the end of this year.

Memorable Moments:

• Why they named the company after Cape Agulhas (the southernmost tip of Africa where ocean currents meet)
• The "strange people coming in and out of the office" during transition planning
• Staff feedback: Agulhas focused on opportunity and empowerment, other companies went straight to "when do we get our bonus?"
• The employee trustee's quarterly anonymous pulse surveys to check how everyone's feeling
• Transitioning in December 2020: "We were playing Hokey Cokey with COVID"
• Achieving B Corp certification in summer 2023 as a reinforcement of EO values
• Catherine's immediate answer to who she most admires: "Ann Tyler" - no hesitation

Guest: Catherine Cameron, Founder at Agulhas

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/catherine-cameron (simple!)
• Company: https://agulhas.co.uk

Sponsor: This episode is brought to you by EOT Expert by Christian Wilson – providing technical expertise and compliance support for EOT transitions and ongoing governance. Learn more at eotexpert.co.uk

For today's episode of The Alternative Exit Podcast, Andy Farquharson is joined by Alex Moss, a pioneer in the field of employee ownership and is currently the president of Praxis Consulting Group. Alex has decades of experience advising employee-owned companies and mission-driven organizations. He served in leadership roles on the boards of multiple ESOPs and has been a key advocate in the employee ownership community.

Andy will dive into Alex's journey and his work at Praxis. He also shared in this episode his insights on creating resilient and high-performing organizations through employee ownership. Listen and learn more about these topics, and enjoy the show!

Key Takeaways:

• Alex and his story of forming Praxis Consulting Group.
• Employee ownership is a great tool to help people succeed
• Core elements of a great employee ownership model
• Connecting theory and practice at Praxis
• How Alex approach organizational change
• What is business sustainability
• The value system of ownership vs leadership
• Why won't employees want ownership?

About Alex Moss

Alex Moss is the Founding Principal of Praxis Consulting Group. He is a pioneer in the field of employee ownership and has decades of experience advising employee-owned companies and mission-driven organizations. Alex has served in leadership roles on the boards of multiple ESOPs and has been a key advocate in the employee ownership community.

Connect with Alex Moss

• Website: https://www.praxiscg.com/team/alexander-p-moss-mppm

Connect with Andy Farquharson:

• LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/  
• Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/andyfarq  
• Website - https://abettermonday.me/  
• Email - andy@bettermonday.me  

In today’s episode of The Alternative Exit, I’m joined by Erinch Sahan, Business and Enterprise Lead at the Donut Economics Action Lab. Erinch brings a bold new lens to our conversations on ownership, rooted in his work with the Donut Economics framework – a model that calls for businesses to operate within ecological limits while meeting social needs.

Erinch and I dive into how enterprise design and ownership models like employee ownership can transform businesses into vehicles for long-term sustainability, fairness, and resilience. We explore why now is the perfect moment for retiring business owners to reimagine the future of their companies, and how structures that give employees a real stake in decision-making and outcomes can help get us into the “donut” – a safe, just space for humanity.

Key Takeaways:

• What is Donut Economics and how it redefines the role of business
• Why ownership and governance models matter for sustainable transformation
• The connection between employee ownership and long-term ecological resilience
• How local ownership leads to more responsible decision-making
• Challenges owners face when transitioning to alternative ownership models
• Why fear of change – from employees or advisors – is often misplaced
• The role of enterprise design in unlocking innovation and employee engagement
• Why the transition to employee ownership isn’t binary and doesn’t mean giving up all control

About Erinch Sahan

Erinch Sahan is the Business and Enterprise Lead at the Donut Economics Action Lab. Prior to this, he served as the Chief Executive of the World Fair Trade Organization, worked at Oxfam, and taught at the Cambridge Institute for Sustainability Leadership. With over 900 businesses engaged in his work, Erinch brings deep insight into how to redesign businesses to serve both people and planet.

Connect with Erinch Sahan:

Website: https://doughnuteconomics.org

LinkedIn: Erinch Sahan

Connect with Andy Farquharson:

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/andyfarq   

Website - https://abettermonday.me/   

Email - andy@bettermonday.me   

• The history of employee ownership in the United States
• Introduction of employee relationship
• The misconceptions about employee ownership: It is not socialism
• The vision of an industrial republic
• Importance of changing organizational culture and employee engagement as part of the transition
• Creating democratic capitalism
• ESOP vs EOT
• The biggest challenge to implementing employee-owned structures in companies
• Having future committees in ESOP companies
• The Employee Equity Investment Act

About Chris Mackin
Chris Mackin is the founder and president of Ownership Associates, a consulting firm based in Cambridge, Massachusetts. He is also a fellow at the Rutgers University School of Management and Labor Relations, where he teaches a course on democratic capitalism and contributes to the Institute for the Study of Employee Ownership and Profit Sharing. He plays an active role in shaping policies that govern employee ownership and participates in employee ownership symposiums around the world.

Connect with Chris Mackin

• -Website: https://ownershipassociates.com/
• -LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopher-mackin-3238723/

Connect with Andy Farquharson:

• LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/  
• Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/andyfarq   
• Website - https://abettermonday.me/   
• Email - andy@bettermonday.me

With examples of thriving employee-owned companies and discussions on the challenges and flexibility of the model, this conversation is a deep dive into the future of work and ownership. Tune in to learn why employee ownership might just be the future of business success.

Key Takeaways:

• The flexibility of employee ownership models which allows businesses to customize them to fit their unique needs.
• How employee ownership shifts employee mindsets and improves workplace culture.
• Exploring how the Employee Ownership Trust (EOT) can help businesses achieve financial freedom while benefiting employees.
• The role of supportive legislation and professional services in facilitating the adoption of employee ownership models.
• Real-life examples of businesses thriving after transitioning to employee ownership and clearing their founder’s debt.

About James De le Vingne:

James is Chief Executive of the Employee Ownership Association, the UK’s leading voice on employee ownership, representing a sector that contributes between £30 to 40 bn a year to UK GDP as well as a membership organisation for UK businesses of private or public sector origin, that are wholly or partially owned by their employees.

Previously James was Head of Development at Co-operatives UK and has a background in international development and local economic development. James is a Board member of Scotland for EO, an Executive Fellow of the Institute for the Study of Employee Ownership and Profit Sharing at Rutgers University and an RSA Fellow.

Connect with James De le Vingne:

• LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/james-delevingne/
• Website - https://employeeownership.co.uk/

Connect with Andy Farquharson:

• LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/
• Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/andyfarq
• Website - https://abettermonday.me/
• Email - andy@abettermonday.me

• How Sonali's work with Kiva and small business consulting led her to discover employee ownership
• The founding story of Zolidar and its mission to scale EO through smart tech tools
• A breakdown of Zolidar’s tools: Day Zero Guide, AHA Planner, and ZolidAI support bot
• How Zolidar helps owners navigate valuations, exit scenarios, and financing options
• Why advisors benefit from owners who arrive EO-ready with clear questions and data
• The importance of storytelling, decision support, and community building in EO adoption
• What’s next: supporting post-transaction businesses and building advisor/owner matching tools

About Sonali Kothari:
Sonali is the co-founder and CPO/COO of Zolidar. She previously served as COO of Kiva and held leadership roles at Jobs for the Future. With a career focused on equitable economic solutions, Sonali is committed to using technology to unlock inclusive, employee-owned futures.

Connect with Sonali & Zolidar: 
Website: www.zolidar.com
LinkedIn: Sonali Kothari
Email: sonali@zolidar.com

Connect with Andy Farquharson:
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/  
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/andyfarq   
Website - https://abettermonday.me/   
Email - andy@bettermonday.me

He shared the benefits of direct employee ownership and the powerful impact of keeping businesses community-centered. They also talked about the stock grant program, educating employees about the company's financial and operational data, and the five different stages of employee ownership. Listen and hear Drew's inspiring stories and value in this field. Enjoy the show!

Key Takeaways:

• The concept of shared success for all employees
•  Benefits of direct employee ownership to Drew while in Cargas
•  Guiding principles of direct employee ownership
• Train employees to learn and understand the company's financial and operational data
• How the Employee Stock Ownership Plan differs from other models of employee ownership
• The five different stages of employee ownership

About Drew Mousetis

Drew Mousetis is a leader in the field of employee ownership. He is the Executive Director of Tandem Centre for Shared Business Success, and he previously worked extensively with Cargas. With Cargas, Drew helped the company to transition towards an employee-owned company. Now, at Tandem, his mission is to help companies create lasting legacies through direct employee ownership.

Connect with Drew Mousetis

• Website - https://www.tandemcenter.org/ 
  
  

Connect with Andy Farquharson:

• LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/ 
• Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/andyfarq 
•  Website - https://abettermonday.me/ 
• Email - andy@bettermonday.me 

In this engaging episode of The Alternative Exit Podcast, Andy Farquharson interviews Matt Cropp, Executive Director of the Vermont Employee Ownership Center, who sheds light on the far-reaching impact of employee ownership on businesses, communities, and individual wealth. 

Matt shares stories from Vermont’s leading employee-owned companies, discussing the nuances of ESOPs versus worker cooperatives, and why these models lead to stronger communities and resilient companies. Dive in to discover how employee ownership is transforming business legacies and creating sustainable economic growth.

Key Takeaways:

• How employee ownership deepens employees' connection to their work and community.
• The differences between ESOPs and worker cooperatives.
• How Vermont businesses succeed with employee ownership.
• The long-term community benefits of employee-owned businesses.
• How employee ownership builds retirement security and resilience in downturns.

Resources Mentioned:

• Carris Reels - https://carris.com/

 About Matt Cropp:

Matt has been with the organization since 2014, where he has developed deep expertise in employee ownership while serving in a variety of roles before becoming Executive Director. Matt received his MA in History from UVM in 2011, where he studied economic history and the origins of cooperative finance. He's involved on a volunteer basis with a number of co-op projects, including as a board member of two real estate co-ops, as chair of an investment club, and as a member of a credit union supervisory committee. 

Matt lives in the New North End of Burlington with his partner and their son, and in his free time enjoys gardening, tinkering with electronics and sustainable energy tech, and spending nice days rolling around town on his bike at a leisurely pace.

Connect with Matt Cropp:

• LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/matt-cropp-9b9b5137/
• Website - https://www.veoc.org/team

Connect with Andy Farquhason:

• LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/
• Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/andyfarq
• Website - https://abettermonday.me/
• Email - andy@abettermonday.me

In this episode of The Alternative Exit Podcast, Andy Farquharson is joined by Alison Lingane, a dedicated social entrepreneur who spent her career leveraging the business. She co-founded a non-profit called Project Equity, which promotes employee ownership.

She shared her journey with Project Equity and her transition to focus on expanding investment capital for employee ownership through the Ownership Capital Labs, which is advancing shared ownership models. Alison and Andy also talked about the power of employee ownership, the cash collateral program, and the beauty of the employee ownership space. There is a lot of value in this episode; enjoy the show!

Key Takeaways:

•  Alison's inspiration to co-found Project Equity
• The real power of ownership through the lens of employee ownership
• Impacts of collective groups of employee-owned businesses on the local economy
• About the cash collateral program
• Reorder of steps in the process of employee ownership
• Bridging the gap for employee ownership with Ownership Capital Labs
•  Alison's advice for business owners about employee ownership

About Alison Lingane

Alison Lingane is a dedicated social entrepreneur who spent her career leveraging business. Ten years ago, she co-founded a non-profit called Project Equity, an organization that has been promoting employee ownership. She also expanded from Project Equity to investment capital for employee ownership through the Ownership Capital Labs.

Connect with Alison Lingane

• Website: https://ownershipcapitallab.capital/ 

Connect with Andy Farquharson:

• LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/  
• Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/andyfarq  
•  Website - https://abettermonday.me/  
• Email - andy@bettermonday.me  

Ever wondered what it really takes to turn a grassroots composting hustle into a thriving, worker-owned enterprise? This conversation with Michael Robinson, co-founder of Rust Belt Riders, takes us inside that transformative journey.

Michael and I talk about how Rust Belt Riders evolved from an idea rooted in community gardens and philosophical values into a formal worker cooperative. We unpack how financial transparency, shared decision-making, and open dialogue have powered their growth, and how the team continues to navigate complex conversations around pay equity, governance, and scaling workplace democracy. This episode is full of practical wisdom for any founder considering a co-op model or looking to deepen employee engagement.

Key Takeaways:

• Why Rust Belt Riders started with a cooperative mindset from day one
• The long road from LLC to formal worker cooperative
• Lessons in financial transparency and open-book management
• Navigating pay structures and consensus-based decision-making
• The role of trust, compassion, and unlearning in cooperative success
• Using tech like Lumio to streamline collective decisions
• The cultural shift from "pretending to be a co-op" to truly being one

About Michael Robinson

Michael is the co-founder of Rust Belt Riders and serves as treasurer on the board of Cleveland Owns. With a background in philosophy and a passion for social and political equity, Michael brings a grounded, values-driven approach to cooperative leadership and community wealth building.

Connect with Michael Robinson

Website: www.rustbeltriders.com
Tilth Soil: www.tilthsoil.com
Cleveland Owns: www.clevelandowns.coop
LinkedIn: Michael Robinson

Connect with Andy Farquharson:

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/ 

 Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/andyfarq   

Website - https://abettermonday.me/   

Email - andy@bettermonday.me   

• How Steve’s experience in the Marine Corps led to a surprising path into employee ownership
• The emotional connection and cultural power of ESOPs
• Why financial literacy is critical to employee engagement
• The role third-party administrators play in bridging education gaps
• Common misconceptions that make ESOPs hard to explain—and how to fix that
• How EOX is scaling state-by-state to increase national awareness
• Why employee ownership is a retention tool, and not (yet) a recruitment tool
• The challenge of capital access—and how philanthropy and impact funds are changing that
• The rise of ESOP-led acquisitions to grow ownership across sectors
• What’s next for the employee ownership movement

About Steve Storkan

Steve Storkan is the Executive Director of the Employee Ownership Expansion Network (EOX), a national nonprofit on a mission to grow employee ownership across the United States by supporting the development of state centers. Since joining EOX in 2019, Steve has helped expand the network from 8 to 24 state centers and continues to advocate for inclusive business models that benefit both owners and employees.

Connect with Steve Storkan
Email: info@eoxnetwork.org
LinkedIn: Steve Storkan
Website: https://eoxnetwork.org

Connect with Andy Farquharson:
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/  
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/andyfarq   
Website - https://abettermonday.me/   
Email - andy@bettermonday.me

In this episode of The Alternative Exit Podcast, host Andy Farquharson talks with Derek Razo, Co-Founder and Managing Partner of Common Trust, about the transformative role of Employee Ownership Trusts (EOTs) in helping business owners transition ownership to employees while preserving company legacy and culture. 

Derek highlights the benefits of EOTs as an effective alternative to traditional exits, especially for small to mid-sized businesses, and shares how this model fosters a culture of collective ownership and profit-sharing. Join the conversation to understand how EOTs are not only changing business succession but also reshaping communities by promoting shared wealth.

Key Takeaways:

• How EOTs empower employees to share in the company’s success.
• How employee ownership helps preserve business legacy and culture.
• Why EOTs are more accessible and scalable than ESOPs.
• How employee ownership transforms communities by creating local wealth.
• The essential role of an ownership culture in driving business resilience.

Resources Mentioned:

• Text-Em-All - https://www.youtube.com/@TextEmAll

About Derek Razo:

Derek Razo, Co-founder and Managing Partner at Common Trust, is a leading expert in steward ownership transitions and has been instrumental in advancing the movement for purpose-driven business structures since 2016. He has co-founded influential organizations like Purpose International and Purpose US, which popularized the use of Perpetual Purpose Trusts for mission protection. 

He has served as an investor, advisor, and delivery partner for businesses shifting to stakeholder and purpose ownership models. With a computer science and business background from UC Berkeley, Derek’s diverse experience spans from founding cooperative and open source businesses to collaborating on community-led projects in affordable housing and indigenous-led funds.

Connect with Derek Razo:

• LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/derek-razo-b758a7270/
• Website - https://www.common-trust.com/

Connect with Andy Farquharson:

• LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/
• Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/andyfarq
• Website - https://abettermonday.me/
• Email - andy@abettermonday.me

In this episode of The Alternative Exit Podcast, host Andy Farquharson sits down with Rob Brown, Director of Business Ownership Solutions at the Cooperative Development Institute (CDI), to discuss the transformative power of employee ownership. Rob shares insights into how transitioning businesses to employee-owned cooperatives not only benefits employees but also builds stronger communities and ensures business continuity. 

From sharing real-world examples to outlining CDI’s comprehensive transition support, Rob explains the key factors that make employee-owned companies thrive. Tune in to hear Rob’s expert take on why employee ownership is more than just a financial decision—it’s a path to lasting legacy and stability.

Key Takeaways:

• The mindset shift required for employees to see themselves as owners.
• Open-book management to create a culture of trust and engagement.
• The financial and interpersonal benefits of employee-owned cooperatives.
• The transition with CDI’s “soup-to-nuts” approach to support and training.
• The process of turning employees into credible, bankable buyers.

Resources Mentioned:

• Democracy at Work Institute - https://institute.coop/
• The Great Game of Business - https://www.greatgame.com/

About Rob Brown:

Rob Brown is the director of Business Ownership Solutions at the Cooperative Development Institute. He is a nationally recognized expert in the field of cooperative ownership transitions and transaction development, and has assisted dozens of companies to explore, assess, structure and execute worker cooperative conversions. 

Rob has developed extensive programs of education, training, coaching and technical assistance for boards, management and members in new worker-owned cooperatives, and leads programs at the local, regional, and national level to educate and advise business owners on the exit planning process and options.

Connect with Corey Rosen:

• Website - https://cdi.coop/

Connect with Andy Farquhason:

• LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/
• Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/andyfarq
• Website - https://abettermonday.me/
• Email - andy@abettermonday.me

For today's episode of The Alternative Exit Podcast, Andy Farquharson is joined by Deb Oxley, a prominent advocate for employee ownership and the Chair, NED, Mentor, and Specialist in Employee Ownership. 

She shared stories of how she influenced companies about employee ownership, the need to influence influencers like accountants and lawyers about its importance, and its impacts. They also talked about the 'whoosh' effect on employee ownership and the concept of 'financial freedom day.' Listen to learn more about these. Enjoy the show!

Key Takeaways:

• How Deb found her way into the employee ownership space
• Big challenges to sharing awareness about employee ownership with companies
• The pre-transition space of accountants and lawyers
• What is the ownership 'whoosh' effect?
• The financial freedom day
• Employee ownership is a change of ownership, not leadership.
• Importance of financial literacy in employee ownership
• Giving a level of personal accountability to employees
• What is the biggest barrier to growth for employee ownership?

About Deb Oxley

Deb Oxley is a prominent advocate for employee ownership. She had a tenure from 2015 to 2022 as the CEO of the Employee Ownership Association in the UK. During her time, she had a significant impact on the organization, growing its reach and impact. Deb was awarded an OBE in 2019 for her services to employee ownership and social enterprise. 

Connect with Deb Oxley

• X: @DebOxley 
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/deboxley 
• Email: deb@oxleyworks.co.uk 
• Resources: https://employeeownership.co.uk/ 

Connect with Andy Farquharson:

• LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/  
• Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/andyfarq   
• Website - https://abettermonday.me/   
• Email - andy@bettermonday.me

In this episode of The Alternative Exit Podcast, Andy Farquharson interviews Simon Morton, founder of Eyeful Presentations and author of Employee Ownership: A Guide to Transitioning from Boss to Benefactor. Simon shares his journey of transitioning his company to employee ownership after nearly two decades, highlighting the challenges, successes, and deeply personal motivations behind his decision. 

He provides actionable advice on leadership, communication, and creating a legacy through employee ownership, while also offering a candid look at the emotional and practical aspects of letting go. This episode is a treasure trove of insights for anyone considering employee ownership as an exit strategy. Tune in to hear Simon’s inspiring story and expert advice!

Key Takeaways:

• The importance of strong leadership and coaching before transitioning to employee ownership.
• Open communication as the cornerstone of a successful employee ownership transition.
• How aligning personal and business goals creates a sustainable legacy.
• The transformative impact of empowering employees to think and act like owners.
• The balance between financial goals and the emotional satisfaction of leaving a lasting legacy.

 About Simon Morton:

Simon Morton is an internationally recognized expert on presentation development, and is the founder of Eyeful Presentations, one of the top three presentation consultancy and design companies in the world. Serving customers from more than 20 countries via five global offices, Simon has worked with top brands and thought-leaders, helping them to develop presentations that get the job done.

He is well known for his concept challenging views on modern business presentations and in this series, he discusses his book, ‘The Presentation Lab: Learn the Formula Behind Powerful Presentations’ with Grant Leboff.

Connect with Simon Morton:

• Website - https://eyefulpresentations.com/
• LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/morts-uk/

Connect with Andy Farqurhason:

• LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/
• Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/andyfarq
• Website - https://abettermonday.me/
• Email - andy@abettermonday.me

We dive into the mindset shifts, practical steps, and candid lessons she encountered along the way. From pizza on the beach to quarterly vision days, Bella unpacks how leadership evolved, how her team responded, and how intentional communication turned doubt into advocacy. This one is packed with honest insights for any founder curious about what an alternative exit really looks like in action.

Key Takeaways:

• Why Bella initially planned to sell Salad, and what changed her mind
• How a single question reframed the company’s growth narrative
• What Chris Budd advised her not to do after learning about EO
• The emotional and operational impact of telling her team
• Setting up the employee council, trust board, and operational board
• How employee voice helped shape company policies and culture
• Why a strong leadership model still matters in EO businesses
• The surprising benefits of staying small and running lean

About Arabella Lewis-Smith:

Arabella is the founder and MD of Salad, a UK-based creative design agency. With over two decades at the helm, she transitioned the business to 100% employee ownership in 2021. Bella is known for her transparent leadership style and active advocacy for people-first business models.

Connect with Arabella:

Website: www.saladcreative.com
LinkedIn: Arabella Lewis-Smith

Connect with Andy Farquharson:

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/  

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/andyfarq   

Website - https://abettermonday.me/   

Email - andy@bettermonday.me   

David shares his path from rising partner to CEO of Oliver & Co, his decision-making as the firm moved to 100% employee ownership, the deal structure (and mindset) behind the transition, and how he navigated the emotional side of stepping away. We explore: How do you know when it’s time to exit? How do you craft an exit that preserves culture? How much is “enough”? And, maybe most importantly, how do you prepare your successor (or successor culture) so the business survives — and thrives — after you depart?

Timestamps:
00:00 Introduction: Why Podcast Sustainability Matters
03:15 Environmental Impact - Digital Carbon Footprint 
08:45 Green Hosting and Production Practices 
12:30 Social Sustainability - Diversity and Inclusion Goals 
18:20 Making Content Accessible to All 
22:40 Economic Sustainability - Revenue Diversification 
27:15 Team Wellbeing and Fair Compensation 
31:50 Content Strategy for Long-term Impact 
36:25 Measurement, Metrics, and Accountability 
41:10 Quick Wins You Can Implement Today

Key Takeaways:

• Exiting a professional-services business is not just about money — culture, client continuity and legacy matter significantly.
• Start planning the exit years before you actually want to depart: mindset, systems, leadership, client relationships.
• Converting to an employee ownership model (like Oliver & Co did) can align incentives and preserve continuity for clients and staff.
• Value creation happens in the business long before a board says “we’re ready to exit” — leadership matters.
• The emotional aspect of “letting go” is often underestimated — even when financials are strong.
• After exit, staying involved in a non-executive/trustee role can help with transition and personal identity.

David Owens

David Owens is the former CEO of Oliver & Co Solicitors, a firm based in Chester, UK. Under his leadership, the firm became 100% employee-owned and has consistently championed a high-performance but client-first culture. His expertise spans professional-services leadership, exit strategy, succession planning and governance in owner-led firms.

Oliver & Co Solicitors is a full‐service law firm based in the North-West of England. It provides services in personal and business law, including conveyancing, wills & probate, family law, commercial property and more. The firm emphasises “we are accountable to our clients and to each other” as part of its employee-ownership culture.

Connect with David Owen:

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-owen-eot/
Website - https://www.oliverandco.co.uk/ 

Connect with Andy Farquharson:

LinkedIn - https://linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/
Instagram - https://instagram.com/andyfarq
Website - https://abettermonday.me/
Email - andy@bettermonday.me

What happens when a 9-year-old's sense of justice grows into a $2.2 billion investment banking career dedicated to employee ownership? In this episode, I sit down with John Hoffmire, research associate at Oxford's Center for Mutual and Co-owned Business and founder of an investment banking firm that facilitated massive ESOP transactions. John shares his unconventional journey from working with displaced farm workers in California to becoming a leading voice in employee ownership finance, revealing why he chose the challenging path of making employee ownership deals bankable.

We explore the financial realities behind employee ownership transitions, from the struggle to raise capital for EO-focused funds to the critical role of "bankable" CEOs in deal success. John opens up about the contradictions of working in high finance while staying true to his mission of economic justice, and introduces a revolutionary concept for expanding employee ownership globally through nonprofit surplus-sharing models. This conversation is packed with hard-won insights for anyone curious about the financial mechanics that make alternative exits possible.

Timestamps:

00:00 Introduction and Guest Overview
 01:51 Early Career Path to Employee Ownership
 02:10 From California Farm Workers to Finance
 05:03 Why John Considers Himself "Lucky"
 06:53 From Bain & Company to Investment Banking
 08:01 The Discomfort of Corporate Contradictions
 09:48 The 9-Year-Old's Revelation About Poverty
 11:25 Why Investment Banking for Employee Ownership
 20:55 Employee Ownership in Countries Without Tax Support
 24:01 Nonprofit Surplus-Sharing as EO Alternative
 28:28 The Dignity Principle in Employee Ownership
 33:36 Transition from Practitioner to Academic
 37:08 Policy Advice: Start with One Case Study
 39:53 Quick-Fire Questions
 41:37 Contact Information and Wrap-Up

Key Takeaways:

• How childhood experiences with poverty and injustice can shape a lifetime career in economic democracy
• The fundamental challenge of raising capital for employee ownership funds when you're giving away majority control
• Why "bankable" leadership matters more than perfect financial structures in EO transitions
• The critical importance of dignity as a first principle in employee ownership design
• Why starting with one successful case study beats creating perfect policy frameworks
• The role of community organizers in building sustainable employee ownership ecosystems
• How going public became an alternative solution when private fundraising failed

About John Hoffmire:

John Hoffmire is a research associate at the University of Oxford Center for Mutual and Co-owned Business and director of the Center on Business and Poverty. He holds a PhD from Stanford and co-hosts the annual Oxford Symposium on Employee Ownership. John founded an investment banking firm that facilitated approximately $2.2 billion in ESOP transactions and has dedicated his career to promoting inclusive economic development through innovative financial structures and employee ownership.

Connect with John:

Website: cobap.org
Linkedin: https://uk.linkedin.com/in/john-hoffmire-5999621

Connect with Andy Farquharson:

LinkedIn - https://linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/
Instagram - https://instagram.com/andyfarq
Website - https://abettermonday.me/
Email - andy@bettermonday.me 

• What it means to serve as an elected trustee in an employee-owned firm
• How Stephens Scown created employee voice at the strategy table
• The shift from employee to owner—and how it unlocks commercial thinking
• How the "Ideas from Sconers" system works and the business case behind it
• The role of trust boards, parishes, and peer-to-peer coaching in EO cultures
• Why great EO leaders coach, challenge, and encourage entrepreneurial risk-taking
• How employee ownership can drive better businesses and better societies
• Why open feedback loops and transparency build real trust
• How employees can grow their EO knowledge through community sharing

About Sam Moles
Sam Moles is the Digital Marketing Manager and Trustee Representative at Stephens Scown, a leading employee-owned law firm in the UK. Named the Employee Owner of the Year in 2023, Sam has played a key role in shaping how employee voice is embedded at a strategic level within the firm. Known for his boundless energy and passion for EO, Sam also leads peer-learning initiatives across employee-owned businesses and champions practical tools that help shift mindsets from employee to owner.


Connect with Sam Moles:
LinkedIn: Sam Moles – Stephens Scown
Website: https://www.stephens-scown.co.uk

Connect with Andy Farquharson:
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/  
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/andyfarq   
Website - https://abettermonday.me/   
Email - andy@bettermonday.me

We dive into the emerging evidence shaping the future of employee ownership in the U.S., from macroeconomic trends to personal stories of founders who prioritise legacy over liquidation. Adria discusses why awareness and education remain the biggest barriers to broader adoption, and how a high-trust culture can make or break a successful transition. Packed with data, heart, and hope, this episode offers a rare window into the psychology of selling—and the possibility of exits that build both wealth and community.

Timestamps:
00:00 Introduction and Guest Overview
 01:13 Exploring the Rutgers Institute’s Research Legacy
 04:17 The Rising Awareness of Employee Ownership in the U.S.
 08:20 What Motivates Founders to Choose Employee Ownership
 11:55 The “Benevolence” Factor and Cultural Transitions
 15:17 How Awareness and Advisor Education Affect Adoption
 17:33 The Synergy Between High-Trust Culture and Employee Ownership
 23:28 The True Cost—and Payoff—of Investing in Culture
 28:34 ESOPs and the Wealth-Building Impact for Workers
 32:20 Barriers to Scaling Employee Ownership
 34:12 Fast Round: Leaders, Resources, and Final Words of Advice

Key Takeaways:

• Why wealth inequality and wage stagnation are driving renewed interest in employee ownership
• The mixed motivations of sellers—balancing liquidity, values, and workforce legacy
• How some owners find ESOPs a financially rational exit, not just a benevolent one
• The hidden effort required to build high-trust, high-performance cultures post-transition
• Why awareness and advisor education are the biggest barriers to EO adoption
• The proven wealth impact of ESOPs: average $165,000 per employee in retirement value
• Why ESOP regulation makes it a uniquely inclusive and equitable ownership model
• Adria’s call for simpler, off-the-shelf EO models to reach smaller businesses
  
  

About Dr. Adria Scharf:

Dr. Adria Scharf is the Project Director of the Curriculum Library for Employee Ownership (CLEO) at Rutgers University, the world’s largest university-based institute dedicated to advancing research and education on shared capitalism. Her work explores how employee ownership influences job quality, economic security, and business succession. A respected researcher and advocate, Adria has co-authored multiple reports and is shaping the academic foundation for the next generation of equitable business models.

Connect with Dr. Adria Scharf:
Website: https://cleo.rutgers.edu
 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adria-scharf-621b442/

Connect with Andy Farquharson:
LinkedIn - https://linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/
 Instagram - https://instagram.com/andyfarq
 Website - https://abettermonday.me/

In this episode of The Alternative Exit Podcast, Andy Farquharson hosts Maureen Conway, Vice President at the Aspen Institute and Executive Director of its Economic Opportunities Program. Together, they delve into the transformative potential of employee ownership, discussing how it addresses economic inequality, enhances job quality, and fosters long-term business competitiveness. 

Maureen shares her journey advocating for inclusive business models, highlights innovative initiatives from the Aspen Institute, and offers actionable advice for business owners considering transitioning to employee ownership. Packed with insights, this episode is a must-listen for anyone exploring sustainable business models and community impact. Tune in to discover how employee ownership can redefine success for companies and workers alike!

Key Takeaways:

• The transformational power of employee ownership in building equitable economies.
• Myths about employee-owned companies and showcasing their scalability.
• Advice for business owners planning a transition to employee ownership.
• How employee ownership fosters civic engagement and strengthens communities.
• Systemic barriers that hinder the growth of employee ownership models.

About Maureen Conway:

Maureen Conway serves as vice president at the Aspen Institute and executive director of the Institute’s Economic Opportunities Program (EOP). EOP works to expand individuals’ opportunities to connect to quality work, start businesses, and build economic stability that provides the freedom to pursue opportunity. Maureen founded EOP’s Workforce Strategies Initiative and has headed up workforce research at the Aspen Institute since 1999. Maureen also curates a public discussion series at the Aspen Institute, Opportunity in America, which brings together voices from business, labor, policy, human services, media, academia, and others to discuss the challenges experienced by many in today’s labor markets and new ideas for addressing these challenges. 

In addition, Maureen oversees EOP’s leadership development programs, which connect innovators, both within communities and from across the country, to peers working to help low- and moderate-income Americans access opportunity.

Connect with Maureen Conway:

• Website - https://www.aspeninstitute.org/people/maureen-conway/

Connect with Andy Farquharson:

• LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/
• Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/andyfarq
• Website - https://abettermonday.me/
• Email - andy@abettermonday.me

In this episode of The Alternative Exit, Andy talks to Professor Ajay Bhalla, PhD, a Professor of Family Business at Bayes Business School and an expert in employee ownership. Ajay discusses the profound benefits and challenges of transitioning businesses to employee-owned models, drawing from both research and real-world examples, such as John Lewis and Make Architects. 

He emphasizes the importance of aligning employee ownership with company culture, maintaining profitability, and ensuring legacy. Ajay also explores how businesses can overcome financial challenges during this transition, with the right planning and external support. Don't miss this episode if you're curious about how employee ownership can boost engagement, foster innovation, and preserve business legacy.

Key Takeaways:

• How successful employee ownership requires founders to trust in the profitability and sustainability of the business.
• Understanding the critical role that creating a strong employee culture plays in successful ownership transitions.
• Discovering how external patient capital can bridge the gap in financing employee buyouts.
• Learning about the flexibility and creativity employee-owned businesses gain during economic downturns.
• The importance of starting the transition to employee ownership early for a smooth and profitable process.

Resources Mentioned:

• Employee Ownership Association in the UK - https://employeeownership.co.uk/

About Ajay Balla:

Born into a third generation family business in India, Ajay is regarded as one of the leading global experts on family businesses and strategy. Over the past 25 years, Ajay has worked closely with family businesses across the world, advising them on issues ranging from family governance, succession, next generation engagement to digital transformation. He is currently a Chaired Professor of Family Business & Innovation and Director of Family Business Centre at Bayes Business School of City, University of London.

He also sits on the board of Institute for Family Business (IFB) Research Foundation.

His work stream on ownership has helped shape British government’s policy on promoting employee ownership. He has won multiple awards for his research including the most prestigious award for producing impactful research from Academy of Management and Charted Management Institute (CMI). 

Winner of multiple teaching awards, he is most passionate about helping next generation leaders build resilient family businesses. He is the co-author of Amazon Best-seller: The Resilient Decision Maker: Navigating Challenges in Business and Life.

Connect with Ajay Balla:

• LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/ajaybhalla/
• Website - https://www.ajaybhalla.org/

Connect with Andy Farquharson:

• LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/
• Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/andyfarq
• Website - https://abettermonday.me/
• Email - andy@abettermonday.me

In this episode, I sit down with Karen McGuire, founder of Relinea, a successful GRP manufacturing company in Northern Ireland that transitioned to employee ownership in 2022. Karen shares her deeply personal journey from building a business over 17 years to making the brave decision to hand it over to her employees after her father's death changed everything. Her story reveals how employee ownership became not just an exit strategy, but a powerful way to preserve culture, protect jobs, and strengthen communities.

We explore the remarkable transformation that followed her transition - from initial employee confusion to unprecedented productivity gains, from suggestion boxes full of requests for four-day work weeks to business cases for trolleys that improve efficiency. Karen unpacks the practical realities of implementing Employee Ownership Trusts, the cultural shifts that drive real results, and why she's now leading Employee Ownership Ireland's mission to create 10,000 employee-owners by 2029. This conversation is packed with honest insights for any founder considering alternative exits and reveals why employee ownership is becoming the succession strategy of choice in Northern Ireland.

Timestamps:

 02:25 Building Relinea and Personal Circumstances That Changed Everything
 06:11 Discovering Employee Ownership and Making the Decision
 07:43 Telling Employees About the Transition - Reality vs. Expectations
 09:13 The Importance of Management Structure in Employee Ownership
 11:38 Three Years Later - Performance and Culture Transformation
 21:21 Education and Communication Strategies for Employee Ownership
 39:15 Employee Ownership Ireland - Building the Movement
 43:47 The Future of Employee Ownership in Northern Ireland
 47:42 Quick Fire Questions

Key Takeaways:

• How personal loss can redirect business priorities and reveal what truly matters beyond profit
• Why M&A meetings left Karen feeling "dirty" while employee ownership aligned with her values
• The reality gap between owner excitement and initial employee confusion about ownership transition
• The role of succession planning pressures in driving interest in alternative exit strategies
• Why Employee Ownership Ireland aims to prevent any business sale without EO being "on the table"

About Karen McGuire:

Karen McGuire is the founder of Relinea, a specialist manufacturer of GRP (Glass Reinforced Plastic) structural products based in Crumlin, Northern Ireland. She built the company from 2005 into one of the leading suppliers across the UK and Ireland before transitioning it to 100% employee ownership in 2022. Karen now serves as Chair of Employee Ownership Ireland, a business alliance working to create 10,000 employee-owners in Northern Ireland by 2029. She's recognized for her advocacy of employee ownership as a succession model that preserves business culture and strengthens local communities.

Connect with Karen McGuire:

Website: https://www.relinea.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/karen-maguire-581b9698/
Employee Ownership Ireland: https://employeeownershipireland.com 

Connect with Andy Farquharson:

LinkedIn - https://linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/
Instagram - https://instagram.com/andyfarq
Website - https://abettermonday.me/
Email - andy@bettermonday.me 

Key Takeaways:

While the tax-free incentive has driven amazing growth in UK employee ownership, it's also created a significant barrier: many transitions rely entirely on deferred consideration, with sellers waiting years to receive their money. This lack of accessible finance has held back countless transitions that could otherwise happen.

Chris explains why mainstream lenders have retreated from anything "out of the ordinary" and how Shawbrook was founded specifically to serve these underserved niches. There's nothing fundamentally different about lending to employee-owned businesses - but you do need to understand the nuances around governance, management transitions, and how businesses prepare to bring employee owners on the journey.

The conversation reveals a fascinating insight: if tax advantage is the only reason someone's going through the transition, they're probably not well-prepared for it, making it more challenging for lenders to provide finance. Chris's team looks beyond the numbers and management CVs to assess how thoughtfully businesses have considered what employee ownership actually means.

Memorable Moments:

• Why the US has both strong service providers AND strong finance, while the UK has lagged on the latter
• The importance of not being afraid of "prodding and poking" - it's part of growing up as a business
• How roughly half of Shawbrook's clients come directly through relationships and referrals
• Chris's unique answer about Victorian-era cooperative movements providing inspiration for today
• Why talking to businesses that have already made the transition is the best research you can do

Guest: Chris Walton, Shawbrook

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cjwalton/
• Company: https://www.shawbrook.co.uk

Sponsor: This episode is brought to you by EOT Expert by Christian Wilson – providing technical expertise and compliance support for EOT transitions and ongoing governance. Learn more at eotexpert.co.uk

In this live episode from the EOA Conference in Telford, Andy talks with Shelley Poole, founder of Wellington HR, who started her business in 2019 with the intention from day one to grow it into an employee-owned business. She also conducted doctoral research on employee voice in EO organizations, making her uniquely positioned to bridge academic research and practical implementation.

Key Takeaways:

Wellington HR proves that employee ownership can work at micro scale - they're a team of six (soon to be seven). Shelley waited until the business was financially sound before transitioning, not because of a magic number of employees, but because she wanted to demonstrate that EO "isn't all scary" when you have money in the bank and stable operations.

The conversation reveals a powerful insight from Shelley's doctoral research: people need information, but they also need to understand that information to have intelligent contributions to make. Otherwise, employee voice stays superficial - "where should we go for the Christmas party?" - rather than meaningful strategic input.

At Wellington HR, they practice radical transparency: everyone knows everyone's salaries, the team looks at P&L statements, and they spent significant time educating the team on how to read financials. Shelley's research identified that barriers to voice often come from how information is shared and made available, not just whether it's shared at all.

Memorable Moments:

• Starting a business in 2019: "Great year to be starting a business just as we go into a pandemic"
• The horror story: "When did you find out you were becoming employee owned?" "On the day we transitioned"
• Why salary transparency and financial education matter before expecting meaningful voice
• How HR can lead by example: consulting employees on maternity policy rather than just announcing it
• The succession gap: new leaders thrown in the deep end when founders exit without preparation
• Robert Oakeshott's legacy of dividing not just profit but power and voice

Guest: Shelley Poole, Founder at Wellington HR

• LinkedIn: [Shelley's LinkedIn Profile - you'll need to add this]
• Company: [Wellington HR website - you'll need to add this]
• Resource: Shelley's doctoral thesis summary available via Wellington HR

Sponsor: This episode is brought to you by EOT Expert by Christian Welsom – providing technical expertise and compliance support for EOT transitions and ongoing governance. Learn more at eotexpert.co.uk

In this episode of The Alternative Exit Podcast, Andy sits down with Jon Shell, Chair of Social Capital Partners, to explore the transformative potential of employee ownership. Jon shares insights from his journey in advocacy and policy, recounting how he’s championed for Employee Ownership Trusts (EOTs) in Canada to address wealth inequality and business succession. 

His experiences highlight the advantages of EOTs, from preserving a company’s legacy to fostering economic resilience in the workforce. Tune in to discover the future of ownership and its role in reshaping business culture and social equity.

Key Takeaways:

• How Employee Ownership Trusts empower business owners to leave a lasting legacy.
• The role of employee ownership in combating wealth inequality.
• Canada’s steps toward adopting EOTs for sustainable economic transitions.
• The tangible impact of majority-owned employee businesses in economic recessions.
• How Social Capital Partners leverages ownership funds for wider social outcomes.

Resources Mentioned:

• Capital in the Twenty-First Century - https://www.amazon.com/Capital-Twenty-Century-Thomas-Piketty/dp/067443000X

About Jon Shell:

Jon Shell is Chair of Social Capital Partners (SCP) and has been advocating to bring Employee Ownership Trusts to Canada since the release of SCP’s report Building an Employee Ownership Economy in 2020. He’s a former small business owner and co-founder of the Canadian Employee Ownership Coalition. Jon was Managing Director of SCP from 2017-2023, leading the transition to our Ownership Agenda. He spent most of his career in the private sector before joining SCP, founding and growing successful companies in both Canada and Australia. 

Jon co-founded both Save Small Business and the Canadian Employee Ownership Coalition. Jon was first introduced to SCP when Bill supported a volunteer entrepreneurship project he was leading in Kenya in 2008. He received a BA from Queen’s University and an MBA from the Richard Ivey School of Business at Western University.

Connect with Jon Shell:

• LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jon-shell-8952491
• Website - https://www.socialcapitalpartners.ca/

Connect with Andy Farquharson:

• LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/
• Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/andyfarq
• Website - https://abettermonday.me/
• Email - andy@abettermonday.me

What does it take to build an entirely new employee ownership ecosystem from the ground up? In this episode, I sit down with Tiara Letourneau, co-founder and CEO of Rewrite Capital and board chair of Employee Ownership Canada, to explore how she's architecting Canada's emerging EOT market. With a Master's in Finance from Cambridge and a background in climate finance and impact investing, Tiara brings a unique lens to employee ownership—one focused on creating excellent companies, not just executing transactions.

We dive into the fascinating journey from lobbying for new legislation to building a specialized advisory firm that combines M&A expertise with industrial psychology. Tiara shares why change management is just as critical as financial structuring, how Canadian EOTs offer unprecedented flexibility, and what it takes to help business owners reimagine succession beyond the traditional sale. This conversation is packed with insights on trustee roles, governance transitions, securing bank financing without personal guarantees, and why Canada's three-year window demands a quality-first approach to every transaction.

Timestamps:

00:00 Introduction and Tiara's Journey to Employee Ownership
 08:00 Lobbying for Canada's EOT Legislation and Building a Coalition
 14:00 Why Design and Implementation Matter as Much as M&A
 22:00 Training the ABCs: Trustees, Boards, and Management
 32:00 Helping Owners Reimagine Control and Legacy
 37:00 Financing EOTs: Securing Bank Partnerships Without Personal Guarantees
 46:00 The Three-Step Process: Feasibility, Roadmapping, and Transaction
 54:00 Quickfire Round: Leaders, Resources, and Advice for Owners

Key Takeaways:

• Combining M&A expertise with industrial psychology and change management prevents years of post-transaction governance friction and creates stronger employee ownership transitions
• Canada secured 14 financial partners willing to lend for EOTs without personal guarantees by focusing on conservative leverage (40-50%) and speaking the language of bankers
• The critical question for business owners isn't about maximizing price—it's "What do you wish to preserve about your company?" and designing the transaction around that vision

About Tiara Letourneau:

Tiara Letourneau is co-founder and CEO of Rewrite Capital, Canada's premier M&A advisory firm dedicated exclusively to Employee Ownership Trusts, and board chair of Employee Ownership Canada. With a Master's in Finance from Cambridge and extensive experience in climate finance, Islamic finance, and impact investing, she has designed and optimized multi-billion dollar funds before turning her focus to employee ownership. Tiara was instrumental in advocating for Canada's EOT legislation and is recognized as a thought leader in innovative finance solutions

Connect with Tiara Letourneau:

LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/tiaraletourneau/
Website: www.rewritecapital.com 
 

Connect with Andy Farquharson:

LinkedIn - https://linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/
Instagram - https://instagram.com/andyfarq
Website - https://abettermonday.me/
Email - andy@bettermonday.me 

In this live episode from the EOA Conference in Telford, Andy sits down with Jonathan Winchester, CEO of Insight6, a customer experience specialist who keynoted at last year's conference with a memorable twist: he mystery shopped the audience.

Key Takeaways:

Jonathan brings a unique outside perspective to employee ownership. Insight6 helps businesses transform customer experience through six methods: mystery shopping, inquiry handling, employee and client listening platforms, online feedback analysis, focus groups, customer journey mapping, and mentoring/coaching/training.

The conversation reveals a critical gap in how most organisations listen to their teams. Annual surveys with 30-40 questions that 50% of staff fill out begrudgingly, followed by months of board review and often no action. Jonathan shares the story of an optician where deep listening revealed the problem wasn't massive - it was the tea room. Old sofa, broken coffee machine, no milk. Basic stuff. But the CEO ripped it out over a weekend and satisfaction went up.

The key insight: CX is all about making people feel special through human connection. And that requires asking the right questions at the right cadence. Not annual surveys - regular net promoter scores every two months. Not questions written by "Mary" who doesn't understand what you're trying to achieve. And critically, taking visible action so people feel listened to.

Memorable Moments:

• "You bugger" - how attendees greeted Jonathan after last year's mystery shopping exercise
• EO businesses handle inquiries three times better than accountants (and twice as good as most sectors)
• The tea room transformation story and why deep listening matters
• "If you were me, what would you do?" - the simple question that unlocks real feedback
• Why asking the wrong questions is worse than not asking at all
• "No knobs" - the rule of business Jonathan loved hearing at the conference

Guest: Jonathan Winchester, CEO at Insight6

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathanwinchester/overlay/photo/
• Company: https://www.insight6.com
• Email: jonathan@insight6.com

Sponsor: This episode is brought to you by EOT Expert by Christian Wilson – providing technical expertise and compliance support for EOT transitions and ongoing governance. Learn more at eotexpert.co.uk

We explore the pivotal role of the Nuttall Review in 2014, the psychology behind why business owners choose employee ownership over traditional exits, and the practical challenges of financing EO deals. From his farming background that sparked his interest in cooperatives to his front-row seat watching Scotland's EO revolution unfold, Glen provides unique insights into what makes successful transitions work and how government support can catalyze grassroots movements.

Timestamps:

00:00 Introduction and Guest Overview 
01:11 Glen's Journey to Employee Ownership 
02:29 Owner Motivations Beyond Money 
03:43 From Farming to Scottish Enterprise 
05:20 Glen's Role in EO Advisory 
07:25 The Dramatic Growth in EO Awareness 
09:39 Consistent Lead Flow and Market Maturity 
11:04 Tax Benefits Driving Uptake 
12:18 Financing EO Deals - The Reality 
20:47 What Makes Successful EO Transitions 
25:23 Professional Management vs Entrepreneurial Founders 
27:42 The Kemco International Success Story 
30:33 Entrepreneurial Orientation in EO Businesses 
33:19 Scottish Government Goals and Results 
35:19 Accelerating EO Growth - Lessons from Northern Ireland 
38:07 Quick Fire Questions 
41:51 Where to Connect with Glen

Key Takeaways:

• Why most EO-bound owners have motivations beyond money and want businesses to remain local and intact
• How Scotland's EO sector exploded from 15 to 340+ businesses, with 60% being Scottish-headquartered
• Why most EO deals are financed through deferred consideration over 5-10 years rather than bank lending
• How strong company culture and democratic decision-making are prerequisites for successful EO transitions
• Why "Freedom Day" (debt payoff) psychology matters for employee motivation during transition periods
• How Northern Ireland's grassroots, privately-funded approach is accelerating EO growth faster than top-down models

About Glen Dott:

Glen is a specialist advisor in employee ownership at Cooperative Development Scotland, a unit within Scottish Enterprise. With a farming background that gave him early exposure to cooperative models, Glen has been instrumental in Scotland's remarkable EO growth story. He manages lead flow for potential EO transitions, supports feasibility studies, and has helped develop Scotland into one of the world's leading EO regions through practical support, market building, and policy development.

Connect with Glen:

LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/glen-dott-512b141a/?originalSubdomain=uk
Website: https://scottish-enterprise.com/  

Connect with Andy Farquharson:

LinkedIn - https://linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/
Instagram - https://instagram.com/andyfarq
Website - https://abettermonday.me/
Email - andy@bettermonday.me 

Key takeaways

• Center the human/leadership dimension. Ownership mindsets, dignity, and employee wellbeing must be designed—not assumed.
• “Pilot first, policy next.” Start with a success case to build proof and momentum before pushing for policy.
• Governance is a muscle. One-person-one-vote can tilt short-term; boards and education must balance long-term stewardship.
• Finance drives scale. ESOP-style leverage, pension alignment, and M&A can accelerate sector growth when done responsibly.
• Bottom-up pathways matter. Grassroots entrepreneurship—e.g., women-led cooperatives—can transition into EO and broaden impact.

Chapters

• 00:00 — Host intro: Reflections from Blenheim; empathy, employee voice, and mental health in EO.
• 00:53 — Chantal Carr: From co-ops to EO; start with one success; ambition: a women’s co-op in Kenya transitions to EO.
• 03:26 — Robert Postlethwaite: Candid governance realities; one-person-one-vote and balancing short- vs long-term incentives (Basque case).
• 04:20 — Glen Dott: Financing innovation; interest in ESOP leverage, sector growth via M&A, potential role of AI.
• 06:53 — Outro: What’s next on Alternative Exit: deeper interviews with global EO leaders.

Notable quotes

• Andy: “Let’s design with empathy—employee voice, mental health, and wellbeing are part of the ownership equation.”
• Chantal: “Go do it first. Build the success case—policy follows evidence.”
• Robert: “Be honest about governance—employees often favor the short term; structures must protect the long view.”
• Glen: “To reach the next level, we should learn from ESOP financing and unlock more M&A activity.”

Who should listen

Owners exploring succession; EO practitioners; policymakers; advisors; leaders building resilient, values-driven companies.

Resources & mentions

• Oxford Symposium on Employee Ownership (event)
• Hope Arising; Disruptive Giving (Chantal)
• Postlethwaite Solicitors (Robert)
• Scottish Enterprise / Co-operative Development Scotland (Glen)

Call to action

• Subscribe to Alternative Exit for deeper, long-form EO conversations.
• Share this episode with owners or advisors considering employee ownership.
• Connect with us for case studies and practical transition toolkits.

Key Takeaways:

Glide operates a direct ownership model that's different from most EOTs discussed at the conference. Every employee is required after one year to buy shares in their parent company from Glide, which holds about 20% of gifted non-tradable shares donated by founder Hugh Facey. The model is set up like a sports club: one member, one vote, no hierarchy, with elected representatives.

The power of this approach? When people have skin in the game and see personal financial growth linked to business performance, "you see the cogs turn." The connection between discretionary effort and individual dividend payments creates powerful alignment. Michael describes how sharing forecast dividends and share price impacts generates tangible engagement with business performance.

The conversation explores sophisticated governance: Glide operates with clear accountability around growing businesses, new product innovation as a percentage of turnover, charity contributions, and sector support. Michael serves on company boards, participatory frameworks include 200 members in budget discussions, and the model has proven sustainable for decades - the founder gifted shares in the early 1990s.

Memorable Moments:

• Hugh Facey's view: "It's not proper employee ownership" without direct ownership
• The coffee shop conversation: understanding dividends through the lens of personal spending
• How 11.5% annual share price growth demonstrates the model's success
• The delicate balance: Glide challenges and holds businesses to account, but doesn't manage them
• Why every key person in the business is a shareholder (succession risk mitigation)
• The "largest shareholder" insight: 20% gifted shares plus all individual shareholders who are Glide members
• Michael's admiration for Andrew Lane at Union Industries: "Very authentic Yorkshire business"

Guest: Michael Hodgson, Elected Chair at Glide

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-hodgson-a79ab625/overlay/photo/
• Companies: Gripple, Load Hog, GoTools (find via their websites)

Sponsor: This episode is brought to you by EOT Expert by Christian Wilson – providing technical expertise and compliance support for EOT transitions and ongoing governance. Learn more at eotexpert.co.uk

We explore the messy realities of transitioning ownership and leadership simultaneously—something Chris admits they "did a fairly bad job of" initially. From navigating the 30-30-40 rule of employee engagement to creating a hybrid ownership model that combines EOT benefits with direct share ownership, Chris shares hard-won insights about what really works in employee ownership. Now helping other small businesses through GO EO, he brings both founder and advisor perspectives to the challenges of making employee ownership accessible and affordable.

Timestamps:

00:50 Introduction and Chris's EOT Journey
03:21 What Sparked the Transition to Employee Ownership 
05:05 The Challenge of Transitioning Ownership and Leadership
08:23 Employee Engagement and the 30-30-40 Rule 
12:25 The Reality of Employee Mindset in Ownership Models 
17:45 Creating a Hybrid EOT Model with Direct Share Ownership 
23:46 Advising Others: Common Questions from Business Owners 
29:46 EOT Sales vs Traditional Trade Sales 
32:33 Preparing for Employee Ownership Transition 
35:06 Advice for Business Owners on the Fence

Key Takeaways:

• Why losing passion for growth can be a signal it's time to transition ownership
• The importance of clearly defining roles and responsibilities during leadership transitions
• The 30-30-40 rule: 30% of employees will embrace ownership, 30% can be engaged with effort, 40% view it as just a job
• How a hybrid EOT model can balance collective ownership with individual stake and accountability
• Why direct share ownership creates both upside potential and downside risk for key employees
• The advantages of EOT sales: control over process, minimal haggling, and tax benefits
• Common valuation challenges when owners have unrealistic expectations about business worth
• The importance of having a clear post-sale purpose and role definition
• Why EOT works best for founders who genuinely care about staff and long-term business future

About Chris Maslin:

Chris Maslin transitioned his accounting firm Maslin to an Employee Ownership Trust in 2021, serving as both founder and employee trustee during the transition. Now working with GO EO, he helps small businesses (5-50 employees) navigate affordable EOT transitions. Chris brings a unique perspective having experienced employee ownership from both sides—as a business owner making the transition and as an advisor helping others through the process.

Connect with Chris Maslin:

LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/chris--maslin/
Website: go-eo.uk 

Connect with Andy Farquharson:

LinkedIn - https://linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/   
Instagram - https://instagram.com/andyfarq   
Website - https://abettermonday.me/ 
Email - andy@bettermonday.me 

What happens when you witness the worst possible exit scenario and vow never to repeat it? In this episode, I sit down with Tim Rettig, CEO of Intrust IT, to explore his deliberate 8-year journey from sole ownership to employee ownership. Tim shares the pivotal moment in a Texas manufacturing plant that changed everything—watching employees discover their company had been sold without warning, their owner vanished overnight, and their futures thrown into uncertainty. This traumatic experience sparked Tim's commitment to creating a radically different legacy through employee ownership.

We dive deep into Tim's methodical approach to ESOP transition, starting with his father's successful employee ownership story and evolving into his own strategic implementation. From introducing open-book management and the Great Game of Business to building a culture where 70 employees understand financials and forecast P&L line items weekly, Tim reveals how transparency and education became the foundation for shared ownership. This conversation is packed with practical insights on financial literacy training, daily huddles, quarterly bonuses, and the governance structures that make employee ownership thrive.

Timestamps:

00:00 Introduction and Guest Overview
 02:48 The Flexibility and Complexity of ESOP Structures
 08:28 The Catalyst: Witnessing a Traumatic Business Sale
 16:23 Setting the 8-Year ESOP Goal and Employee Involvement
 20:51 The Accounting Game: Teaching Financial Literacy
 25:42 Cultural Changes Moving to 100% Employee Ownership
 32:05 Innovation from Employee Ownership: The AI Security Solution
 34:07 Quick Fire Questions and Final Advice

Key Takeaways:

• How witnessing a traumatic business sale in Texas became the catalyst for Tim's ESOP commitment
• Why announcing ESOP goals 8 years in advance gets employees invested in the journey
• The power of the "Accounting Game" workbook to teach financial literacy in just 8 hours
• How 35 of 70 employees forecasting P&L line items gives real-time financial visibility
• Why the 30% ESOP threshold enables 1042 tax-deferred exchanges for business owners
• How employee-driven innovation led to an AI-powered cybersecurity solution becoming a new product
• The governance shift from advisory board to external board with firing power at majority ownership

About Tim Rettig:

Tim Rettig is the CEO of Intrust IT, a technology services company he founded in 1992 and transitioned to 30% employee ownership in 2019. Currently in due diligence to become 100% employee-owned, Tim has set an ambitious goal to create 10,000 employee owners in his lifetime. He's also the interim owner of Staff Nation, which he plans to transition to employee ownership as well, continuing the family legacy started by his father's successful ESOP transition in the early 2000s.

Connect with Tim Rettig:

Linkedin: https://linkedin.com/in/timrettig/
Website: intrust-it.com/

Connect with Andy Farquharson:

LinkedIn - https://linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/
Instagram - https://instagram.com/andyfarq
Website - https://abettermonday.me/
Email - andy@bettermonday.me 

We dive deep into the practical realities of building an employee-owned business over six years. From managing deferred consideration payments to restructuring governance models, Barry unpacks the lessons learned, challenges faced, and unexpected benefits of choosing employee ownership. This conversation is packed with honest insights about leadership transition, stakeholder management, and why protecting culture and client relationships ultimately trumped financial maximization.

Key Takeaways:

• Why Barry's exploration of trade sales felt like "value destruction" rather than creation
• How wide share ownership (20 employees) complicated but ultimately enhanced the EO transition
• The strategic decision to communicate EO plans 18 months early to build trust and excitement
• Why a nine-person trust board was too big and how they streamlined to five with independent chairs
• The critical importance of aligning meeting cadences between main board and trust board decisions
• How "partner voice" groups separate operational input from trust board governance responsibilities
• Why deferred consideration payments create healthy tension around growth vs. payout priorities
• The unexpected client acquisition benefits of being publicly employee-owned
• How leadership transition and ownership transition are two distinct processes requiring separate focus

About Barry Horner:

Barry is the co-founder and executive chair of Paradigm North, a 93-person financial planning firm that transitioned to employee ownership in 2019. With over two decades of building values-driven businesses, Barry recently completed his leadership transition by stepping back as CEO while maintaining his role as board chair. He's an active champion of the employee ownership community and advocates for sustainable, purpose-led business models that prioritize long-term stakeholder value.

Connect with Barry:

LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/barry-horner
Website: https://paradigmnorth.co.uk 

Connect with Andy Farquharson:

LinkedIn - https://linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/
Instagram - https://instagram.com/andyfarq
Website - https://abettermonday.me/
Email - andy@bettermonday.me 

 He discusses the building blocks of ownership culture, from education and leadership development to continuous improvement practices, and highlights the long-term benefits of investing in people. This episode is packed with actionable advice and thought-provoking stories that will inspire any business owner considering employee ownership. Don’t miss out on this engaging conversation—listen now to unlock the full potential of ownership culture!

Key Takeaways:

• The essential link between rights and responsibilities in ownership culture.
• How education and leadership are the foundation of successful employee ownership.
• The transformative impact of continuous improvement practices in employee-owned companies.
• How transparency and financial literacy empower employees to think and act like owners.
• How aligning leadership values with organizational goals creates long-term resilience.

 About Matt Hancock:

Matt Hancock helps organizations develop ownership cultures that are inclusive, resilient, and innovative. In addition to employee-owned firms, Matt has extensive experience working with labor-management partnerships and non-profit organizations in the United States and the European Union.

Prior to joining Praxis, Matt co-founded Chicago Tech Academy (ChiTech), Chicago’s first technology-focused high school. Matt began his career in Bologna, Italy, where he earned a Master’s in Cooperative Economics from the University of Bologna. He authored a book, Compete to Cooperate, about the cooperative movement there. He holds a BA in history from Skidmore College, a Green Belt in Lean/Six Sigma and is the past Chair of The ESOP Association’s Ownership Culture Committee.

Connect with Matt Hancock:

• Website - https://www.praxiscg.com/team/matthew-hancock-mba

Connect with Andy Farquharson:

• LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/
• Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/andyfarq
• Website - https://abettermonday.me/
• Email - andy@abettermonday.me

In this episode of The Alternative Exit Podcast, Andy Farquharson interviews Chris Budd, founder of the Eternal Business Consultancy, to explore how employee ownership trusts (EOTs) can help business owners preserve their legacy and build enduring organizations. Chris shares his journey from business owner to employee ownership advocate, emphasizing the importance of planning, preparation, and engaging employees in the process. 

Through Chris’s insights, listeners gain a comprehensive view of EOTs as a viable path for business continuity and employee engagement. Don’t miss this episode for a deep dive into creating a lasting legacy through employee ownership.

Key Takeaways:

• The importance of aligning purpose with employee ownership.
• How EOTs offer a path to sustainable legacy-building.
• Preparation to ensure smooth employee ownership transitions.
• How employee voice strengthens business culture.
• Guide founders on how to step back and let employees lead.

Resources Mentioned:

• The Eternal Business - https://theeternalbusiness.com/the-book/

About Chris Budd:

Chris started out as a self-employed independent financial adviser in 1998 (incorporating as Ovation on 1st January 2000) with a strong vision. At the time, financial advice was all about product sales and high up-front commissions. Chris believed that financial advice should be more about planning and a long-term relationship with clients. At the time, he was laughed at (quite literally) for these ideas. All these years later, Ovation delivers planning and advice in a way that makes Chris and our wonderful team very proud. 

The Managing Director of Ovation for 20 years, Chris also founded the Initiative for Financial Wellbeing, the Eternal Business Consultancy and the Backwell Flax Bourton Cricket Club youth section. Now, as Chair, Chris supports the amazing employees of Ovation. He loves the fact that everyone here believes in the core purpose he set out to achieve: helping clients to be happier.

Connect with Chris Budd:

• LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-budd-80b75413/
• Website - https://theeternalbusiness.com/

Connect with Andy Farquhason:

• LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/
• Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/andyfarq
• Website - https://abettermonday.me/
• Email - andy@abettermonday.me

Timestamps:

00:01:12 Christian's Journey into Employee Ownership Law
 00:04:36 What Makes a Company Right for an EOT
 00:08:12 The Three Parts of an EOT Transition
 00:12:29 Valuation, Affordability, and the Retirement Conversation
 00:19:13 Life After Completion: The Real Work Begins
 00:23:23 Why Open Book Management Matters
 00:27:07 Giving Employees a Voice and Influence
 00:34:23 Success Stories: Real Examples from EOT Companies
 00:38:58 Quickfire Round: Leaders, Resources, and Advice

Key Takeaways:

• Employee ownership transitions involve three journeys: legal structure, personal succession for the owner, and cultural evolution for the team
• Valuation and affordability are different—the company funds the purchase through future profits over 6-10 years typically
• The day you complete the EOT is day one of being employee owned, not the finish line
• Open book management unlocks entrepreneurial thinking and helps employees understand business trade-offs
• Employee voice must be matched with responsive leadership—ask for feedback, then show how you've considered it
• Well-structured EOTs include flexibility for market changes and unexpected challenges

About Christian Wilson:

Christian Wilson is a Partner Solicitor at Spencer West LLP, specializing in Employee Ownership Trusts and business succession. With over 25 years of experience, he has guided more than 62 companies through successful transitions to employee ownership, creating 3,500 employee owners with a combined business value exceeding £450 million. Christian is ranked as a Leading Individual in Legal 500 and a Notable Practitioner in Chambers Guide to the Legal Profession. He is also a member of the Employee Ownership Association, an independent trustee for several EOTs, and was previously a non-executive director of the Eden Project. Christian is known for his genuine passion for employee ownership and his ability to make complex legal processes accessible and seamless.

Connect with Christian Wilson:

Website: https://employee-ownership-trusts.co.uk
Spencer West Profile: https://www.spencer-west.com/team/christian-wilson/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christian-wilson-a3597017/
Email: christian.wilson@spencer-west.com 

Connect with Andy Farquharson:

LinkedIn - https://linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/
Instagram - https://instagram.com/andyfarq
Website - https://abettermonday.me/
Email - andy@bettermonday.me 

What happens when you flip the traditional business pyramid upside down? In this episode, I sit down with Ian Hiscock, founder of IHC Limited and a seasoned voice in the UK employee ownership sector. After 30 years at the iconic John Lewis Partnership, Ian now helps companies navigate the complex transition to employee ownership as an independent trustee and advisor. He shares the psychological shifts, leadership challenges, and cultural transformations that make employee ownership work—or fail.

We explore the fundamental mindset changes required from both leaders and employees when transitioning to shared ownership. Ian unpacks his "Four Cs" framework for successful employee engagement, discusses why employee ownership is actually the "purest form of capitalism," and reveals why the transition can be harder for leaders than employees. From managing through tough times to creating psychological safety, this conversation is packed with practical insights for any founder considering an alternative exit strategy.

Timestamps:

00:00 Introduction and Guest Overview
 01:18 Ian's Journey at John Lewis Partnership
 03:39 Understanding the Philosophy Behind Employee Ownership
 06:31 Balancing Commercial Success with Employee Benefits
 11:49 Protecting Business Independence Through EO
 12:59 The Psychological Contract in Employee Ownership
 15:23 Inverting the Leadership Pyramid
 18:48 The Four Cs: Clarity, Context, Consistency, Contribution
 22:25 Creating Psychological Safety for Employee Voice
 24:58 Who Struggles More: Leaders or Employees?
 29:46 Employee Ownership During Tough Times
 34:18 The Twin Tracks: Culture and Financial Reward
 36:16 Quick Fire Questions: Leadership Inspirations
 41:28 Advice for Business Owners on the Fence
 43:06 How to Connect with Ian

Key Takeaways:

• Leaders must psychologically shift to serving daily colleagues who now own the business
• The "Four Cs" framework: Clarity, Context, Consistency, and Contribution
• Employee ownership is pure capitalism—spreading ownership benefits, not rejecting commercial success
• Leaders often struggle more than employees due to emotional obligations to colleagues
• Psychological safety must exist organization-wide, not just in specific voice sessions
• Two tracks required: developing ownership culture while ensuring financial rewards

About Ian Hiscock:

Ian Hiscock is the founder of IHC Limited and a leading voice in the UK employee ownership sector. After spending 30 years at the John Lewis Partnership, including roles as an employee trustee and chair of democratically elected bodies, Ian now serves as an independent trustee on multiple Employee Ownership Trusts. He helps businesses transition their governance, culture, and trust structures toward employee ownership, drawing on deep experience in both the philosophical foundations and practical realities of shared ownership models.

Connect with Ian:

LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/ian-hiscock-926437137/
Website: https://ihclimited.co.uk 

Connect with Andy Farquharson:

LinkedIn - https://linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/
Instagram - https://instagram.com/andyfarq
Website - https://abettermonday.me/
Email - andy@bettermonday.me 

We dive deep into the practical challenges facing the "silver tsunami" of retiring business owners and why employee ownership offers solutions that go far beyond traditional succession planning. From the capital structures needed to make deals competitive, to the cultural shifts required for successful ownership transitions, Mike unpacks the real work happening on the ground. This conversation is packed with insights for anyone curious about how employee ownership can scale beyond aligned sellers to become a mainstream business solution.

Key Takeaways:

• Why workforce development alone isn't enough—quality jobs with wealth-building opportunities are essential for systemic change
• How the "silver tsunami" creates dual challenges: business succession and labor shortages that employee ownership uniquely addresses
• The competitive advantage of employee ownership in attracting talent as labor markets tighten
• Why successful EO transitions require both adequate capital and strong operators, not just aligned sellers
• How existing ESOPs can become powerful acquirers, creating an ecosystem for scaling employee ownership
• The importance of transparency and "loving action" in building authentic ownership cultures
• Why market-based solutions are crucial for employee ownership to compete with private equity and search funds
• How the lower middle market ($3-50M enterprise value) represents the biggest opportunity for employee ownership growth

About Mike Brady:

Mike Brady is co-founder of 40 Million Owners, an organization dedicated to scaling employee ownership across America's lower middle market. Previously, he served as CEO of Greyston Bakery, where he pioneered award-winning open hiring practices and delivered a TED talk on inclusive employment. Mike began his career in strategy at PwC, had a tech exit with Fast, and currently serves as an operating partner at Southeast Acquisition Capital. He's recognized as a leader in impact entrepreneurship and workforce development innovation.

Connect with Mike Brady:

LinkedIn:https://linkedin.com/in/mikebrady40million/
40 Million Owners: https://40millionowners.com/

Connect with Andy Farquharson:

LinkedIn - https://linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/
Instagram - https://instagram.com/andyfarq
Website -https://abettermonday.me/
Email - andy@bettermonday.me 

We explore Robert's idealistic twenties decision to seek "a better way of organizing business," his move from Bristol to Leeds to learn from the only other employee ownership specialist in the country, and how environmental concerns shaped his early vision for shared ownership. From the technical challenges of structuring EOTs to the often-overlooked people side of transitions, Robert offers candid insights on what works, what doesn't, and why some businesses simply aren't ready for employee ownership. He also reveals the biggest challenge his own firm faced after becoming employee-owned: leadership succession.

Timestamps:

00:00 Introduction and Guest Overview 
01:14 Robert's Background and Journey into Employee Ownership 
03:52 Early Employee Ownership Models in the UK 
05:02 The Decision to Leave Corporate Law 
07:01 Building Collaborative Advisor Networks 
08:24 Evolution of EOT Adoption from Evangelical to Pragmatic 
11:02 The Role of Tax Incentives vs. Cultural Commitment 
12:46 200+ Transactions: Common Owner Motivations 
14:08 Transitioning Postlethwaite to Employee Ownership 
35:59 When Employee Ownership Isn't the Right Fit

Key Takeaways:

• Robert's journey from corporate lawyer to EO specialist was driven by wanting "a better way of organizing business" and environmental concerns 
• The technical legal aspects are often the "easy bit" - the people side of letting go and leadership succession are the real challenges
• Democratic decision-making requires intentional culture change and empowering non-lawyer staff in business decisions • Environmental impact was an early idealistic goal, with some positive examples emerging in sectors like architecture • Employee ownership isn't right for businesses with fundamental trust issues between leadership and staff

About Robert Postlethwaite:

Robert is the founder and managing director of Postlethwaite Solicitors, a 100% employee-owned legal practice specializing in employee ownership and share schemes. A graduate in law from the University of Bristol, Robert was a partner in a national firm of corporate lawyers before founding Postlethwaite in 2003. He has been a Band 1 Ranked Lawyer for fifteen years in his field by the legal rankings guide Chambers and Partners. Robert is the author of The Employee Ownership Manual and has guided over 200 companies through EOT transitions.

Connect with Robert Postlethwaite:

Website: https://postlethwaiteco.com
LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/robertpostlethwaite
Book: The Employee Ownership Manual (Second Edition)

Connect with Andy Farquharson:

LinkedIn - https://linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/
Instagram - https://instagram.com/andyfarq
Website - https://abettermonday.me/
Email - andy@bettermonday.me 

We talk about the real impact of employee ownership on businesses, communities, and economic resilience—especially as Europe braces for a wave of generational business exits. Tej also dives deep into how the European ESOP was designed, what makes it unique, and why he believes participatory ownership is essential for building sustainable enterprises. Whether you're a business owner, policy leader, or just curious about the future of capitalism, this one’s packed with fresh ideas and global insight.


Key Takeaways:
- How Tej discovered employee ownership through academic curiosity and macroeconomic mentorship
- Why employee ownership matters from business, social, and macroeconomic perspectives
- The generational wealth transfer challenge facing Europe—and why employee ownership is a strategic solution
- How Slovenia is setting the pace for employee ownership policy in the EU
- The fundamental differences between employee ownership and employee shareholding
- Why capital access and ownership rights matter in building sustainable employee-owned businesses
- How the European ESOP uses a cooperative SPV and rollover model to tackle liquidity challenges
- The importance of education and financial literacy in making employee ownership work
- Why political will, smart regulation, and scalable models are key to driving broader adoption

About Dr. Tej Gonza
Dr. Tej Gonza is the co-founder and director of the Institute for Economic Democracy in Slovenia. A leading researcher in the field, Tej is a research fellow at Rutgers University’s Institute for the Study of Employee Ownership and Profit Sharing and is actively shaping employee ownership legislation across the European Union. He is the co-author of the European ESOP model and a vocal advocate for democratizing economic systems through broad-based, participatory ownership structures.

Connect with Dr. Tej Gonza
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gonzatej/
Website: https://ied.si/en/

Connect with Andy Farquharson:
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/  
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/andyfarq   
Website - https://abettermonday.me/   
Email - andy@bettermonday.me

In this episode of The Alternative Exit, I’m joined by Daniel Goldstein an experienced executive, former CEO of Foliance, and a dedicated advocate for employee ownership. With a career spanning corporate governance, ESOP advocacy, and organizational transformation, Daniel brings a deeply thoughtful and practical lens to how businesses can embrace employee ownership and thrive.

We dive into what happens after the ownership transition — how to ensure long-term sustainability, build buy-in, and drive culture within employee-owned companies. From turning a balance sheet crisis into a holding company opportunity, to creating tangible tools like a "license to act" card that foster true ownership mindset, Daniel shares a masterclass in smart leadership, accountability, and systems that scale.

Key Takeaways:

• The biggest fear in employee ownership isn’t the model — it’s employees undervaluing what they have
• Why shared services and ESOP holding companies simplify transition and scale
• The difference between ownership and entitlement (and how education bridges the gap)
• Why culture change starts with leadership modeling, not employee handbooks
• The “80,000 hours” mindset that makes work about more than just financial rewards
• How governance done well empowers decision-making and accountability at every level
• Why focusing on what’s working — through appreciative inquiry — is more powerful than postmortems
• What’s next in employee ownership: EOTs, sustainability modeling, and cultural storytelling

About Daniel Goldstein:

Daniel Goldstein is the former President and CEO of Foliance, a 100% employee-owned holding company based in Iowa. During his tenure, he transformed the organization through innovative acquisitions, thoughtful governance, and deep cultural investment. Today, he serves as an executive fellow at the Rutgers Institute of Employee Ownership and Profit Sharing, and continues to support the EO community as a speaker, board member, and advisor.

Connect with Daniel Goldstein:
Email: goesopllc@gmail.com
LinkedIn: Daniel Goldstein

Connect with Andy Farquharson:
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/andyfarquharson/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/andyfarq   
Website - https://abettermonday.me/   
Email - andy@bettermonday.me